Backcountry Vehicles

So @IntrepidXJ and @Nick, are you all saying that Toyota isn't as reputable/reliable as they're made out to be and that a 4Runner can't be expected to reliably get up to 300K miles on them before their engines and powertrains start to significantly suffer from wear and tear, again, assuming they've received regular recommended maintenance through their lifetime? Or that I can't expect to find one of either 3rd or 4th gen that's been well maintained, under 200K miles, and under $7K or a little more?

Seems like everyone I know have talked up Honda and Toyota as two of the most reliable brands out there and that 4Runners have especially been known to typically get well over 300K before they start having engine/transmission troubles from expected wear and tear, hence their higher than average resale value even for trucks as old with the higher mileage I've been looking at. That's why I'd consider spending up to 7K or a maybe a little more on one that has up to 200K on it, if I can reasonably expect it to get close to 300K or more before having to dish out money on a costly engine/transmission repair or move on to another vehicle. Heck, even if I could get to 250-275K. The old clunky '95 Montero I had was pretty beat up when I bought it with 150K miles on it, but it was only $2500 and I was a poor starving college student then. But the engine ran, 4WD worked, and it's AC and heater worked. That's about all that worked on it. Unfortunately, it's engine failed not long after getting it and I had to spend another $3000 to get another engine put into it. That then gave me 10 years and made it just over 200K miles this year before it's "newer" engine failed back in August. I partly blame myself because I probably had it loaded with more weight than it should have had when driving up to Yellowstone. It blew a rod and lost power going up the hill out of Malad. But that's another story for another TR I've yet to do on that trip. Still, between what I initially paid for it and the cost of an engine replacement, I only spent a total of about $5500 to get 50K miles out of it, not counting routine expenses like oil changes, new tires, transmission flush, & water pump/timing belt.

Back to TFR's, I'm finding they are consistently running for about a $1K or more, as expected, for about the same mileage in all the used car listings I've looked at when compared to other suitable SUV's and crossovers of other makes/models. That is, with all other things being as equal as they can be, people with a 4Runner with 175K miles are almost always asking for at least a thousand dollars more than anything else I've looked at. For about the same amount being asked for so many 4Runners I've been looking with 175K-200K on them, I can get a Nissan Xterra with 125 to 150K miles on them. I can get Forrester or Outback with 100 to 125K miles on it, but, unfortunately, they've got an even bigger reputation for having head gasket problems as well (at least from the late 90's until more recent models over the last few years), among other hit and miss mechanical problems that are known to surface with them, despite lots of enthusiasts that still love them. I'm still not sure I want a full-time AWD vehicle though because of the tire risks. That, and I think I'd like a little more clearance for washouts, etc...and a little more power for hills.

From Toyota forums I've combed through, those with 4th gen 4Runners that have had the head gasket problems have all surfaced between about 115 and 175K, so I'm finding that a bit surprising as those who bought those 4runners did, given their reputation and expectations that go with that. So I'm wondering if anyone else has or knows anyone with experience with this same head gasket issue others have had with this generation.

My other reasons for desiring a 4Runner besides their touted longevity are the multi-mode powertrains (late 3rd Gen and up) for better handling in variable winter conditions (especially our Wasatch winter storms), relatively smooth and comfortable handling as a daily driver around town, decent amount of cargo space, the detail put into the fit and finish Toyota is known for, and the abundant aftermarket options/possibilites, community, and support that exist for them. And perhaps greatest of all...my wife, after having one (1st gen) when she was in high school, thinks they're sexy and will thus think I'm sexier with one. :D
 
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Rockskipper said:
I'm a big Toyota fangirl, though I think the quality has declined. My FJ was totally made and assembled in Japan, which I think is part of why it's been so awesome - good QC. I'd like to get a Tacoma, but the prices are astronomical these days, so I'll keep my FJ.
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Everything I've read says that all 4Runners have continued to be assembled in Japan as well, at least up through the 4th generation. I haven't done any research on the current 5th generation because there is no way I'll be able afford one of those without payments in good working order right now. FJ's look like tanks. Never ridden in one, but I understand they have the visibility of a tank, but also tough as tanks as well.;)
 
Rockskipper said:
Forget reliability and all that, if your wife thinks you're sexy in it, that's all you need to know. Everything else will fall into place.
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This! ^^^^.

Far more folks have a satisfactory experience with a given vehicle than not. Just made your best guess, spin the wheel and hope it lands on your number :)


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I love my FJ but would never recommend them for any kind of city driving as yes, the visibility is terrible. They should probably be banned from urban areas - not joking.

The rear visibility is like driving a pickup with a topper, you rely almost 100% on your mirrors, and the big supports in the front really block what you can see from the front sides. I can't tell you how many times I've nearly pulled out in front of another vehicle because I didn't see it. I now enter intersections very slowly and carefully. And then there's the issue with the brakes locking up if you pump them, which I've had happen twice and is very dangerous. I learned to never pump the brakes, even in critical situations. Oh, and the windshield- I'm on my 4th at $300 each - that's one every 50k miles. And riding in the back is probably like riding in a tank. I took my back seats out so I can sleep in it, as they don't lie flat.

But get that thing in the backcountry, wow, is it super. It will literally go anywhere and is great to camp in, also.
 
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WasatchWill said:
So @IntrepidXJ and @Nick, are you all saying that Toyota isn't as reputable/reliable as they're made out to be and that a 4Runner can't be expected to reliably get up to 300K miles on them before their engines and powertrains start to significantly suffer from wear and tear, again, assuming they've received regular recommended maintenance through their lifetime? Or that I can't expect to find one of either 3rd or 4th gen that's been well maintained, under 200K miles, and under $7K or a little more?
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I'm not at all suggesting that Toyota isn't as reputable or reliable as they are made out to be. I'm a big believer that they are and their crazy high resale value shows that. I just think that any high mileage vehicle is going to require more than just ongoing maintenance. Not like several thousands dollar repair type things but definitely more than just ongoing maintenance.

The last high mileage vehicle I had was a 4 Runner and it was up in the mid 100k range when I sold it. I had some issues with some sensors or something that caused us problems on a trip and I just didn't want to deal with the inherent reliability issues of any higher mileage vehicle anymore so I stick with newer vehicles now. We were far from home on a trip when it happened and it made things very difficult. Anyway, maybe my perspective is skewed from getting rid of my rides before they hit 60k now, but the idea that $8-9k on a used Toyota should equal 90k trouble free miles seems crazy to me. You could pay $50k on a brand new Toyota and expect to start having to do work on things here and there by that point, IMO.
 
I like Toyotas, (we even own a Sienna) but I can tell you a big part of why I got an Xterra was that all the dealers around here effectively treated their 4Runners like they were gold plated. I also couldn't find used ones in my price range. That and the fact that I also don't want too high of a mileage vehicle (like Nick said above) meant I had to look elsewhere. Hence, an Xterra.
 
Nick said:
I'm not at all suggesting that Toyota isn't as reputable or reliable as they are made out to be. I'm a big believer that they are and their crazy high resale value shows that. I just think that any high mileage vehicle is going to require more than just ongoing maintenance. Not like several thousands dollar repair type things but definitely more than just ongoing maintenance.

The last high mileage vehicle I had was a 4 Runner and it was up in the mid 100k range when I sold it. I had some issues with some sensors or something that caused us problems on a trip and I just didn't want to deal with the inherent reliability issues of any higher mileage vehicle anymore so I stick with newer vehicles now. We were far from home on a trip when it happened and it made things very difficult. Anyway, maybe my perspective is skewed from getting rid of my rides before they hit 60k now, but the idea that $8-9k on a used Toyota should equal 90k trouble free miles seems crazy to me. You could pay $50k on a brand new Toyota and expect to start having to do work on things here and there by that point, IMO.
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Fair points. The more electrical stuff gets with the newer cars and all their sensors and modules will definitely have their risks too as they age. I sure had all sorts of headaches chasing down electrical problems on the old Montero with its limited electric systems. I can only imagine all the circuits and potential points of failure to deal with on newer vehicles in exchange for their modern luxuries and convenience. But more often than not, at least in my experience with the Montero, when I have been able to finally find the point of failure on a circuit, the fixes have been fairly simple and inexpensive. So yeah, I could probably get a less used 4runner or other vehicle with monthly payments and some sort of warranty, but the idea of being able to pay cash, have no monthly payments, and then just take my lumps with little odds and ends as they happen, that may result in a few hundred dollars of additional repairs each year on to of regular maintenance rather than a payment of a few hundred dollars a month, is more appealing to me at this point and worth the gamble. Just don't want to have a high risk of dealing with a bad head gasket or something of that costly nature right after getting a 4Runner, expecting their engines to be more reliable than that, even as old/used as much as what I've been looking at. In the other hand, I do have to acknowledge that there could be those additional risks with the more advanced electrical components, systems, sensors, on these newer vehicles that could prove almost as costly as a head gasket on their repairs. To have that and a head gasket go bad before getting a good amount of use out of it would be disastrous. But I guess maybe I just take that gamble, and make monthly payments for a little while in any such big repair jobs should they come up, given my situation. [emoji848]

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I would take my chances with repairs over monthly payments any day. You get involved with a bank and all kinds of unnecessary things happen. For one, they make you pay full insurance coverage instead of what's legally required by law. Don't forget the added cost of interest, and what if someone offers you a fortune for it if you'll sell it to them right then and there (this happens all the time out in Death Valley during the summer - j/k) - you don't even have a clear title to the thing. And then there's dealing with car dealers...

If I have to finance something to "own" it I can't afford it.
 
I totally get that owning outright is a great thing for some people, but here's an argument in favor of financing a newer vehicle with great resale value over having an older, higher mileage vehicle.

Here's a scenario that's kind of long, but stick with me for a minute...

You go buy a brand new Tacoma for about $36k. You sell your old junker for say $5k and maybe have some cash on hand. Let's say total $10k available to knock off the price of that shiny new Taco.

You have good credit so your interest rate is 3.5% on a 5-year loan (current AFCU rate).

Less your deposit plus sales tax, doc fees, etc. you're probably financing around $28k in this scenario. That puts your payment at about $509 per month. At that interest rate, you'll pay $2555 in interest over the full 5 years.

Now let's say you keep it for the full 5 years and go trade it in to the dealer. According to KBB a similar 5 year old Tacoma with 75k miles would fetch about $22,195 at trade-in. That's the middle value so a good buyer can easily get more.

So over the course of 5 years, you gave up $30,540 in payments and interest on top of the $10k in trade and cash you brought to the table. With your $10k down payment that comes to $40,540. Knock off your trade-in value and the total cost of ownership less gas, maintenance, etc. = $18,345. So basically $305 per month to have a new Tacoma for 5 years ($3660 per year).

Now let's say you took that Taco back to the dealer and got your ~$22k in trade-in toward another brand new Taco. Same scenario now except less sales tax because it's a bigger trade (I love that!). $36k - $22k + around $1-1.5k in tax and fees, so let's say you're now financing $14,805 for 5 years at the same terms but because of all that high resale Toyota equity power your payment is only $269 now!!

5 years later your Taco is worth the same ~$22,195. And you go back and just keep paying roughly $269 per month for a Taco that is always pretty new and low mileage with relatively little maintenance. They even cover oil changes and rotations for the first two years and once that's done you're only paying for an oil change every 10k miles with newer models.

So how much does it cost to maintain that Taco for it's first 5 years/75 miles. Well, Toyota covers oil changes and rotations for the first 25k/2 years so that's free. They only require changes every 10k miles so that only leaves you with 4-5 more oil changes before you trade it in. So let's say $100 x 5 = $500 in oil changes. Depending on what tires you have, you'll probably change out the tires once in 75k miles so let's toss in another $1300 for a sweet set of BFG All Terrains. So $1300+$500 = $1800. Aside from wipers, some extra windshield wiper fluid between oil changes and maybe some brake pads, you shouldn't need to do much else to a brand new Tacoma in it's first 5 years on the road. But let's be generous and say $700 worth of 'other'. That puts us at $2500 over 5 years in maintenance, tires, etc.

Now that we're on our second Taco and riding the high resale value wave, our $269 payment means we're only paying $16,140 per 5 years. Add in that maintenance and you're at $18,640 for an average total cost of $3728 per year or $310 per month.

Now let's talk about a high maintenance vehicle. You kept your $10k from the start and went and bought the best Tacoma you can for $10,000. According to KBB Private Party values, that's going to be something close to an 11 year old Tacoma TRD 4-door with about 165k miles on it.

So for the next 5 years/75k miles, let's figure the maintenance costs. Only the newer models are okay with 10k mile oil changes so they'll need to happen twice as often. Yes, you can get it done cheaper, but let's say you're paying $100 for each oil change/lube/rotation like we did in the previous scenario. 15 x $100 = $1500 in oil changes. Now you're also going to need tires in the next 75k but this time you might be starting out with crap tires. I think two sets is realistic for since you're not starting out new but I'll be optimistic and say we're just doing another $1300 set of BFG's. And now toss in that same $700 slush fund for wiper blades, fluids, etc. from the last scenario and we're at $3500 for the exact same thing that cost $2500 before. Average that out over 5 years and that's $700 per year.

But this isn't the first 75k miles of a vehicle's life, this is miles 165k-240k and things will be breaking. $300 there, $700 here. It adds up. This is my total BS guess but I think $2k per year in random high mileage maintenance is totally reasonable for a vehicle in the 200k mile range. So with your standard maintenance factored in, we're now up to $2700 PER YEAR.

Based on all that, you can have a brand new Tacoma that you trade out every 5 years for $3700 per year, or an 11 year old one that you can't trust as much and have to deal with more problems on for $1000 less per year. Or basically a savings of $83 per month. Even if I'm grossly inflating the actual cost of ownership, it's still not that much savings to stick with a newer vehicle when they have that kind of resale value. I guess it depends a lot on what you do with it and what the value of your time is. If you cut my numbers in half on how much the high mileage vehicle costs, you're still only out about $195 per month to always be driving a brand new Taco that you never have to take to the shop and that will never break down on you. The myth that you lose a ton of value when you drive off the lot simply isn't true all the time. For many people, financing like this can be a very smart move.

EDIT: I neglected to factor insurance, but you get the point.
 
Nick said:
I totally get that owning outright is a great thing for some people, but here's an argument in favor of financing a newer vehicle with great resale value over having an older, higher mileage vehicle.

Here's a scenario that's kind of long, but stick with me for a minute...

You go buy a brand new Tacoma for about $36k. You sell your old junker for say $5k and maybe have some cash on hand. Let's say total $10k available to knock off the price of that shiny new Taco.

You have good credit so your interest rate is 3.5% on a 5-year loan (current AFCU rate).

Less your deposit plus sales tax, doc fees, etc. you're probably financing around $28k in this scenario. That puts your payment at about $509 per month. At that interest rate, you'll pay $2555 in interest over the full 5 years.

Now let's say you keep it for the full 5 years and go trade it in to the dealer. According to KBB a similar 5 year old Tacoma with 75k miles would fetch about $22,195 at trade-in. That's the middle value so a good buyer can easily get more.

So over the course of 5 years, you gave up $30,540 in payments and interest on top of the $10k in trade and cash you brought to the table. With your $10k down payment that comes to $40,540. Knock off your trade-in value and the total cost of ownership less gas, maintenance, etc. = $18,345. So basically $305 per month to have a new Tacoma for 5 years ($3660 per year).

Now let's say you took that Taco back to the dealer and got your ~$22k in trade-in toward another brand new Taco. Same scenario now except less sales tax because it's a bigger trade (I love that!). $36k - $22k + around $1-1.5k in tax and fees, so let's say you're now financing $14,805 for 5 years at the same terms but because of all that high resale Toyota equity power your payment is only $269 now!!

5 years later your Taco is worth the same ~$22,195. And you go back and just keep paying roughly $269 per month for a Taco that is always pretty new and low mileage with relatively little maintenance. They even cover oil changes and rotations for the first two years and once that's done you're only paying for an oil change every 10k miles with newer models.

So how much does it cost to maintain that Taco for it's first 5 years/75 miles. Well, Toyota covers oil changes and rotations for the first 25k/2 years so that's free. They only require changes every 10k miles so that only leaves you with 4-5 more oil changes before you trade it in. So let's say $100 x 5 = $500 in oil changes. Depending on what tires you have, you'll probably change out the tires once in 75k miles so let's toss in another $1300 for a sweet set of BFG All Terrains. So $1300+$500 = $1800. Aside from wipers, some extra windshield wiper fluid between oil changes and maybe some brake pads, you shouldn't need to do much else to a brand new Tacoma in it's first 5 years on the road. But let's be generous and say $700 worth of 'other'. That puts us at $2500 over 5 years in maintenance, tires, etc.

Now that we're on our second Taco and riding the high resale value wave, our $269 payment means we're only paying $16,140 per 5 years. Add in that maintenance and you're at $18,640 for an average total cost of $3728 per year or $310 per month.

Now let's talk about a high maintenance vehicle. You kept your $10k from the start and went and bought the best Tacoma you can for $10,000. According to KBB Private Party values, that's going to be something close to an 11 year old Tacoma TRD 4-door with about 165k miles on it.

So for the next 5 years/75k miles, let's figure the maintenance costs. Only the newer models are okay with 10k mile oil changes so they'll need to happen twice as often. Yes, you can get it done cheaper, but let's say you're paying $100 for each oil change/lube/rotation like we did in the previous scenario. 15 x $100 = $1500 in oil changes. Now you're also going to need tires in the next 75k but this time you might be starting out with crap tires. I think two sets is realistic for since you're not starting out new but I'll be optimistic and say we're just doing another $1300 set of BFG's. And now toss in that same $700 slush fund for wiper blades, fluids, etc. from the last scenario and we're at $3500 for the exact same thing that cost $2500 before. Average that out over 5 years and that's $700 per year.

But this isn't the first 75k miles of a vehicle's life, this is miles 165k-240k and things will be breaking. $300 there, $700 here. It adds up. This is my total BS guess but I think $2k per year in random high mileage maintenance is totally reasonable for a vehicle in the 200k mile range. So with your standard maintenance factored in, we're now up to $2700 PER YEAR.

Based on all that, you can have a brand new Tacoma that you trade out every 5 years for $3700 per year, or an 11 year old one that you can't trust as much and have to deal with more problems on for $1000 less per year. Or basically a savings of $83 per month. Even if I'm grossly inflating the actual cost of ownership, it's still not that much savings to stick with a newer vehicle when they have that kind of resale value. I guess it depends a lot on what you do with it and what the value of your time is. If you cut my numbers in half on how much the high mileage vehicle costs, you're still only out about $195 per month to always be driving a brand new Taco that you never have to take to the shop and that will never break down on you. The myth that you lose a ton of value when you drive off the lot simply isn't true all the time. For many people, financing like this can be a very smart move.

EDIT: I neglected to factor insurance, but you get the point.
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Makes a lot of sense...but my problem is I just don't or won't have the cashflow to make $400-500 a month payments to get started on something like that. Well I could soon, but I still have a student loan to pay off, some credit card debt I'm not proud of, and a HE LOC to pay off that was used to finance a complete reinstallation of our electrical supply to our house last year. I'm expecting an inheritance check from my late grandmother's trust in the next week or two (hopefully...depends on when the beneficiary charity organizations sign and send back their distribution agreements). It's not going to be a ton compared to what others think of when they get left an inheritance, and even so, it's being split among 4 other siblings of mine and 5 other charities. It will be enough, however, for me to pay off all my debts sans the mortgage, plus enough to upgrade our family vehicle that we need to do, and then buy me a new daily driver/play car if I stay around 10K or less. If I can go less, for something suitable, that leaves me enough to put on reserve for any costlier repairs/upgrades should they be needed/wanted, all while increasing my cashflow each month with no debt to worry about so that I can better afford other recreation gear upgrades, accessories, and more importantly, a better quality of life for my kids and family with other experiences, trips, etc.

So that's how I want to do it for now...yeah, it'll be something that I'll probably drive to it's death or close to it, and thus have precious little value left on it when I'm done with it, but at that point in life, in maybe another 5-10 years, then yeah...perhaps I'll be at a point where it'll make more financial sense to finally go in on a brand new car such as in your scenario, or more likely a very lightly used one that can still trade-in for a majority of the cost of another new or lightly used car. Though at that point, my wife will insist we do that on the family vehicle. :)

Pretty crazy, but I just found a 4Runner on KSL with something like 364K miles on it and the dealer was still asking $9K on it and says nothing of any engine replacement/rebuild. Now that seems like a bad value there, I don't care how well maintained it was, but if it was indeed an original engine, that's some outstanding mileage there, the kind I understand one can typcially expect to get with a well maintained Japanese built Toyota. I've found a few others from the mid 2000's with about 300K miles on them as well and still asking for over $5K on them, so that gives me hope in getting one with under 200K miles for less than $10K and then being able to drive it upwards of 300K on them. Even if a year or two from now, something costly like a head gasket or transmission needed to be redone, that really wouldn't be all that bad.
 
Dumping all that debt sounds like the best possible time to jump on the high resale wave, IMO. And don't forget, you can always make it a little easier by going with a 7-year. And with resale like that, you can basically think of it as a savings account. Just sayin'. This all coming from a guy who was riding high on the high resale wave until he bought a damn Ford... :(
 
Nick said:
Dumping all that debt sounds like the best possible time to jump on the high resale wave, IMO. And don't forget, you can always make it a little easier by going with a 7-year. And with resale like that, you can basically think of it as a savings account. Just sayin'. This all coming from a guy who was riding high on the high resale wave until he bought a damn Ford... :(
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But there were so many lights!!!
 
slc_dan said:
But there were so many lights!!!
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Yeah, yeah. I actually still am quite fond of the Fard for the most part. And most of my equity lost could probably be chalked up to getting the top tier technology packages that are now basically standard equipment for higher end trucks. I've thought hard about making the move back to a Tundra but the one thing I can't seem to let go of is the engine. The Tundra has been rocking the same old inefficient 5.7L V8 for more than a decade. Driving the 3.5L Ecoboost around makes me feel like I have a sports car in a truck shape. It would be nice if the doors would stay shut in the winter though...
 
I can see what the pros and cons for both sides. I bought a new car this year (Rav4) for travelling,and for reliability ratings and what not. For most backcountry trips it works well, and I don't have to worry about it breaking down on me as much. But I still needed some thing that could get me further into the backcountry, but I didn't want two car loans. I ended up finding a 96 Jeep Cherokee that I paid cash for. It just over 150000 miles on it. The thing I like about it, is how simple it is mechanically compared to newer vehicles. If something breaks I can replace it my self and save money. I figure if I know that it is going to break it may as well something that I can fix. But that may be just my thinking. And on top of that I will have a better knowledge of how my vehicle operates
So if you have some mechanical knowledge you might be able to save some money by getting something you can fix when something breaks. Then when the time comes and you have the money you can go something newer. When I get more money I might upgrade. But for the time being the Jeep works great for what I need it for.
This has been a really good thread to read. Lot's of good insight.
 
Outdoors24 said:
I can see what the pros and cons for both sides. I bought a new car this year (Rav4) for travelling,and for reliability ratings and what not. For most backcountry trips it works well, and I don't have to worry about it breaking down on me as much. But I still needed some thing that could get me further into the backcountry, but I didn't want two car loans. I ended up finding a 96 Jeep Cherokee that I paid cash for. It just over 150000 miles on it. The thing I like about it, is how simple it is mechanically compared to newer vehicles. If something breaks I can replace it my self and save money. I figure if I know that it is going to break it may as well something that I can fix. But that may be just my thinking. And on top of that I will have a better knowledge of how my vehicle operates
So if you have some mechanical knowledge you might be able to save some money by getting something you can fix when something breaks. Then when the time comes and you have the money you can go something newer. When I get more money I might upgrade. But for the time being the Jeep works great for what I need it for.
This has been a really good thread to read. Lot's of good insight.
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Exactly. My wife says that if we were to finance another vehicle, it will be the family car before my own commuter/recreational car. So yes, an older car with high miles that is still mechanically sound and fairly simple to work on when something does break down is where I'm at right now. Hence, some of the older 4Runner models out there. I've read that the Generation 3 models and the V8s of the gen 4 are fairly simple engines to work on, reliable, and parts are fairly inexpensive. I do a lot of my own work, unless it's something more involved like a timing belt, or anything else like that that needs the engine lifted. Then it's a toss up between whether I want to spend all that time and labor on it myself, or just pay for a professional to do it.
 
I'm a big fan of buying low mileage used and probably always will be. I picked up a low mileage (26,000 miles) Sienna for 10 k+ off new. So i basically have a vehicle that I will put 250-300 k on for 2/3 the price of new. Hard to beat, in my world view.
 
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