Backcountry Vehicles

IntrepidXJ said:
Subaru owners are the only people I know who know exactly how many inches of ground clearance they have :)
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Ha! That comes from 4 years of moderating the damn Crosstrek forum. (All I'll say about that, is that the people who hang out in backcountry forums are way cooler and more mature than the guys who frequent car forums ... )
 
It still can't do what a real 4 wheel drive can do...... Like I said have to decide what you want it for....
 
Kishenehn said:
I drive a Subaru Crosstrek, and am really pleased with the thing overall. (So much so that I'm one of the moderators of the main Crosstrek internet forum.) As was noted, it has 8.7 inches of ground clearance, and is small and nimble enough that it's actually kind of fun to drive. I've driven it off-pavement in Utah quite a bit, and though it's not a rock crawler I'd feel comfortable taking it on 98% of the two-tracks I'm likely to encounter. The only major issues are that it has a lousy approach angle, and the stock tires aren't great for that sort of stuff.

Something like a Subie is a great choice if you aren't looking for an offroad-only rig, but want a daily driver that can handle both the weekday commute and some weekend adventures. It's a comfortable ride, I average about 30 MPG, and I'm not hauling a pickup bed around that would be empty 99% of the time. The 2018 Crosstreks are re-engineered on a completely new platform, and they've got a fair amount going for them.

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Cross Treks are sexy. I've give them that. They're way too new to the market for me to be able to afford one right now though. Even if I could, my biggest concern with them is cargo space. They don't look like they could hold much gear without loading up a roof carrier.
 
Bob said:
It still can't do what a real 4 wheel drive can do...... Like I said have to decide what you want it for....
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I agree. I've had an 09 Outback for a little over 3 years, and it's the worst car I've ever owned. Maybe I'm unlucky, but I felt my old 01' Civic was almost capable, but WAY more dependable. Sure, it's got AWD, but the engine isn't powerful enough to really need it. The clutch slips like crazy. I won't be buying another. I will miss the wagon element, nice to sleep in and GREAT for luggage. I've felt like I'm missing something the entire time I've owned it, Subaru owners usually LOVE their car. I don't.

The only positive thing I can say is that it's great on roads when it snows.
 
I wasn't impressed by our Outback either, had a manual and it couldn't climb anything steep and mildly bumpy. Felt like it was way too heavy for the engine. Was glad to sell it and get a 4runner.
 
Don’t discount an older Chevrolet, Ford or Dodge full size pickup. They can be had pretty cheap and are easy to fix yourself if you are so inclined.


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I recall reading that the previous generation or two of Outbacks had some problems with the CVT. I've only had mine (a 2017) for almost year and a half, but I haven't noticed or heard of any problems.

But of course they lack capabilities that 4WDs have. That's a given.
 
Tystevens said:
Not sure how much off road experience you have, so sorry if I'm preaching to the choir. Depending how much you really plan to use the vehicle, you may want to pay attention to whether it has a 'traditional' transfer case w/ high and low range, equal division of power front and rear, etc., compared to the computer controlled awd systems in some of the smaller SUVs. I don't know, but I'd guess the Escape falls into this class. I haven't looked at those type of vehicles for a while, but I think that the Xterras and 4 Runners will have high and low range abilities. Low range on a rough road can be invaluable, even if you don't need the extra traction. Creeping slowly over rough areas is nice. Also, the ability to descend a long hill w/o being on the brakes the whole time is a lifesaver at times. I've been in off road situations with a couple of the smaller SUVs you mentioned (a highlander and a CRV). Once on the Gemini Bridges road (a pretty mild road -- I use 4wd for about 5 seconds on it in my truck) and once trying to get up to a ski cabin on snowy roads. They really struggled with sand, 4" deep snow and situations where you have uneven traction between the wheels (their stock street tires didn't help, though, for sure).

Finally, don't know what you're driving now, but don't underestimate how much you'll spend on gas getting to and from places when you dip below the 20 mpg threshold! While my truck gets relatively good mileage for a truck (2015 F150 ecoboost, 20-21 mpg freeway), I'll still spend $70-100 on gas going to Moab and back for a long weekend. Tires cost twice as much, you have to service transfer cases and axles, etc. You'll face similar costs with a 4 Runner or Xterra or whatever. Occasional expenses, to be sure, but ... It is enough to make me consider getting a Subaru, since 99% of my driving is, of course, on the freeway or dirt roads where the truck's capabilities are just an added cost. BTW, clearance on an Outback isn't a problem. They are equal to or greater than most SUVs in that capacity. My brother has one (all stock, not lifted :) ), and he takes it a lot of places.
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I don't have a ton of off-road experience...but I have foraged to places like down to River House Ruin along the San Juan River. There's a spot along the road up to that proved to be fun with my Montero. Definitely a spot where LR 4WD is preferred and probably not something I'd even try with a Subaru. It is definitely nice to have that option for those few times where I encounter instances like that. Another road I've yet to do yet, is that one that leads up into Upper Muley Twist in Capitol Reef....I believe some with Subarus have gotten up it with care, but it's much easier with a high clearance 4WD from what I understand. I've never really driven off road or up rough dirt roads for the sake of off-roading though. It's always just been to reach a particular destination.

As for work, I only live 2 miles away, and since I was already getting well under 20 mpg in the city with my old beater of a Montero, that gas isn't that big of a deal. If I was commuting closer to 10-15+ miles to work, then yeah...I think something more economical like a Subaru would have to make a lot more sense. I'd only be taking about a half dozen trips a year with it outside of the county I live in and exhausting a full tank of gas or a bit more on a few of those trips, so i think I'd be ok with something that guzzles a bit more gas. There are a lot of things to like about a Subaru, and it's true for me too that well over 90% of the places I'd be driving to could easily be accessed by them. But knowing there are a few specific places I'd like to return to some time and others I've yet to, that are much better accessed with a true 4WD high clearance vehicle, I feel like leaning in that direction. But they do take more care on the winter roads of the city so as to not damage their axles should they lose traction. From my research, AWD has it strengths on snowy city roads and your average dirt roads. For rock crawling, especially on steeper grades, deeper snow, and the like, a 4WD with Low Range capability is the way to go.

Oh, and you're right about the Escapes...they're not much different from Subarus with their powertrain. No true manual 4WD control on any of them, despite the 4WD label that many of the earlier models have.

Mike K said:
My brief opinions...

Foresters and Outbacks have decent clearance (8.7) I think and get decent gas mileage. Newer Outbacks currently have plusher rides vs Foresters.

Escape - might as well get a Subaru - better clearance (pretty sure). But might be alright.
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Mike, I think you have that number backwards...my research on the Subarus, at least ones going back 10-12 years, found that their ground clearance is actually 7.8 inches. And the Escapes give you a tad bit more, but not much to make it significant. And Escapes are not traditional 4WD as I've come to find out, despite having the "4WD" label.
 
Upper Muley twist access road is one of the roads I had to tap out on with my Forester. Xterra does it no problem.
A crosstek was up there one time I went, though.
 
slc_dan said:
I agree. I've had an 09 Outback for a little over 3 years, and it's the worst car I've ever owned. Maybe I'm unlucky, but I felt my old 01' Civic was almost capable, but WAY more dependable. Sure, it's got AWD, but the engine isn't powerful enough to really need it. The clutch slips like crazy. I won't be buying another. I will miss the wagon element, nice to sleep in and GREAT for luggage. I've felt like I'm missing something the entire time I've owned it, Subaru owners usually LOVE their car. I don't.

The only positive thing I can say is that it's great on roads when it snows.
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I had an '07 Subaru Outback for about 11 months. Was also probably the worst car I've owned. Way smaller inside than it looked, horrible mpg (my F150 gets about the same), used oil and coolant like crazy.

The '10 and newer are a lot better, though. Much more space and better mpg w/ the CVT.

Jackson said:
I recall reading that the previous generation or two of Outbacks had some problems with the CVT. I've only had mine (a 2017) for almost year and a half, but I haven't noticed or heard of any problems.

But of course they lack capabilities that 4WDs have. That's a given.
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Yeah, the first gen w/ the CVT seemed to have some problems -- Subaru bumped up the warranty on those to 100k miles or something like that. Problems seem gone from '15 and up.
 
Cuberant said:
Don’t discount an older Chevrolet, Ford or Dodge full size pickup. They can be had pretty cheap and are easy to fix yourself if you are so inclined.


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This is a pretty good suggestion IMO. They are tough and durable (everything is mechanical), roomy, etc. Not fuel efficient.
 
OK, after doing a lot more research and even a test drive, I'm fairly certain I'm going to want to settle in on a 4Runner for a myriad of reasons. Again, Ideally I'd like to keep it between $5K-7K due to my family growing by 1 more any day now and the need for us to also upgrade our family vehicle to an 8 seater (Looking in the way of a used Nissan Armada for that one by the way). What I can't decide on is a 3rd Gen or 4th Gen T4R. I'm finding a number of good looking ones from both generations within that budget I've set for myself. They are all indeed higher mileage ranging from 150K up to 225K+. The 4th Gen of course appeals to be a bit more in that they are newer with nicer interior and more standard options/features that I like. All the V6 models have a multi-mode that allows me to drive with 4WD without a locked differential, in effect allowing me to have AWD, which will be handy for variable winter conditions in town, but also allow me to go back to 2WD for dryer road conditions in town where and thus get a bit better fuel economy.

The only thing that would make me hesitant one one of these 4th gen V6 models is that the earlier runs (2003-2005) had a design flaw in their head gasket making it so that more than just a few ended up with a slight leak, almost always in their 6th cylinder resulting in repair jobs for people ranging from $1500 to over $3000 based on mechanic/dealer. However, there apparently wasn't enough of these incidences to warrant any recalls, but it does seem to be the most common costly problem that surfaces in these models, which is still odd, because apparently it happened enough for Toyota to acknowledge the flaw enough to correct it with a new gasket design/construction for the latter runs of the same generation, and it is what they use when people come in with that repair needing to be done.

Apparently the models in this same generation outfitted with the V8 engines aren't known to have this problem. The V8's are harder to find though, always have the unlocked 4WD engaged (basically always AWD) with only the ability to lock the center diff, and of course shift into 4L when appropriate. In fact, I've found one model like this, but it already has 200K miles on it and it a bit beyond my desired price range at over $8000. Then again, it does have a 3" lift on it, with an added roof rack, jerry can holder, and all that too. That would all be fun to have on occasion, but I honestly wouldn't have use for that for my recreational lifestyle all that often. Again, I'm usually just wanting to reach a less accessible trailhead up a dirt road rather than a full on overland route/trip or the sake of off-roading itself. I also don't see myself needing the extra torque and towing power.

Of course, I can always just drop down to 3rd Gen. Less attractive interior, less standard features, but the latter runs of 2001-2002 all had a multi-mode with the ability to engage 4WD unlocked as an AWD mode for variable winter roads as we are prone to have here in the mountain west. Being older, most of these I've found are typically closer to 200K miles or north of there already.

Basically, I like to think that if I'm going to spend $5K on a vehicle, I expect to get at least another 5 years, 50K miles out of it without any costly repairs such as head gaskets, transmission, rods braking, engine rebuilds, etc. The only exception might be a new timing belt. If I'm going to spend $7K then I expect 70K reasonably trouble free miles. And if I were to even go over my desired budget at $8-9K, then, certainly 80-90K more miles, 8-9 years, and so on. So, if I were to go with a 4Runner with 200K miles that had been well maintained, and paid $6K to 8K on it, I'd like to think I could get at least another 80K to 100K miles out of it if I continued to keep up with its routine maintenance as well.

So I guess my question now is...does anyone here have experience with or know of the head gasket issues that the 4th gen V6 engines are known to have. Might it still be worth the gamble on one given that not enough incidences have happened to warrant any recalls by Toyota? I've read some posts in some T4R forums where those who encountered this problem tried out some special head gasket sealer additives with some initial success. They'd stated they'd post back if it didn't hold, and never did post back in those threads...soo??? Or would it be better to steer clear of those engines and either go with a V8 (despite the modest hit on fuel efficiency and the risks that come with maintaining tires on what is an essentially an AWD vehicle all the time) or step down to a 3rd Gen?
 
WasatchWill said:
Basically, I like to think that if I'm going to spend $5K on a vehicle, I expect to get at least another 5 years, 50K miles out of it without any costly repairs such as head gaskets, transmission, rods braking, engine rebuilds, etc. The only exception might be a new timing belt. If I'm going to spend $7K then I expect 70K reasonably trouble free miles. And if I were to even go over my desired budget at $8-9K, then, certainly 80-90K more miles, 8-9 years, and so on. So, if I were to go with a 4Runner with 200K miles that had been well maintained, and paid $6K to 8K on it, I'd like to think I could get at least another 80K to 100K miles out of it if I continued to keep up with its routine maintenance as well.
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I'm no Toyota expert, but these expectations just seem too high for me for used vehicles in the price ranges you are looking and the ages of the vehicles...no matter what the make or model?
 
Nick said:
I agree. Especially with a Toyota.
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I agree as well but it seems Will wants to avoid a vehicle with an inherent design flaw with a history of failure.


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My dad had a Subaru and it was a great car. Don't know what model it was, a wagon. I was amazed when he bought it, cause he'd never owned a foreign car in his life. He said he didn't want to buy metric tools, as he always fixed his vehicles himself.

That little car ran forever, and when he died, my brother and I ended up giving it to an older hard-luck couple who were on the verge of being homeless - they looked like they were both ex-alcoholics (or maybe not so ex). My brother knew them from somewhere or other. They drove that car until the paint was starting to fade off. I would see them around town some. I never could recall their names, so I always called them the Steinbecks, as they looked like they were from the Grapes of Wrath. They loved that car. As far as I know, they still have it, though it's also likely they wrecked it.

As for the 4runner (back on topic), I owned a 1990 and never had any problems at all. It was a great vehicle and I wish I still owned it. Traded it on a 1995 T100 Toyota pickup, which was also a fine vehicle until I pretty much wore it out - had a popup camper on it. Sold it and bought a 2007 FJ, which now has 206k miles and no problems so far. I'm a big Toyota fangirl, though I think the quality has declined. My FJ was totally made and assembled in Japan, which I think is part of why it's been so awesome - good QC. I'd like to get a Tacoma, but the prices are astronomical these days, so I'll keep my FJ.
 
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