Bears Ears National Monument

Food for thought. I tend to disagree with the article but its worth a read and I can at least understand Stiles' points...... The comments section is particularly interesting:

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2017/04/opinion-real-danger-bears-ears/

Until someone advocates wilderness solely for wilderness sake I don't ever see the battle of recreation vs. extraction changing.
 
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Bears Ear is so far out of the way that I don't see increased traffic as a major issue. I've only been in that general area of Utah twice and never that far south. The section of Canyonlands to the north has so few visitors relative to other parks that the designation will have minimal effect IMO. The caldera section of Island Park that boarders West Yellowstone is another story.

The real issue is the coal and oil lobby. I intend that as a politically neutral statement. I drive a car and use electricity. I read one study about Escalante stating that there is sbout $400 billion in coal and oil within the monument borders. Bears Ear was not included in the study so I am ignorant to those numbers. You can bet that mining and drilling companies are well aware of the resources. I personally hate driving past oil wells in that region just like I dislike cattle grazing near Yellowstone and GTNP. But then again I usually eat hamburger for lunch when I travel and drive a car to the trail head.

With that said I would probably die a little inside if a president decided to remove a National Park or Monument designation. Those decisions should not be "relitigated."
 
Nick said:
So are you suggesting wonderful outdoor places should just not ever be discussed? Security through obscurity is not a realistic method to preserve anything, in my opinion. The land within Bears Ears will continue to get more popular with or without monument designation, the same is true for ALL outdoors places as population grows and sharing information gets easier. It's inevitable. Get pissed about people making babies.
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Huh?!
 
Nick said:
So are you suggesting wonderful outdoor places should just not ever be discussed? Security through obscurity is not a realistic method to preserve anything, in my opinion. The land within Bears Ears will continue to get more popular with or without monument designation, the same is true for ALL outdoors places as population grows and sharing information gets easier. It's inevitable. Get pissed about people making babies.
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What I'm doing is acknowledging the fact that these places will be more popular. The recent rise in profile of the Bears Ears is a point of cause and effect. More news stories, more photos in the paper, means more people, many of whom (not all) do not have any idea of or care about the impact they have especially in the Cedar Mesa part of Bears Ears. Yes some of us lament the good old days when we did not see anyone in our favorite places and of course we can't be happy about the change, yet we were also 20 years old at one time and in both respects there is no going back.
 
pstm13 said:
Bears Ear is so far out of the way that I don't see increased traffic as a major issue. I've only been in that general area of Utah twice and never that far south. The section of Canyonlands to the north has so few visitors relative to other parks that the designation will have minimal effect IMO. The caldera section of Island Park that boarders West Yellowstone is another story.

The real issue is the coal and oil lobby. I intend that as a politically neutral statement. I drive a car and use electricity. I read one study about Escalante stating that there is sbout $400 billion in coal and oil within the monument borders. Bears Ear was not included in the study so I am ignorant to those numbers. You can bet that mining and drilling companies are well aware of the resources. I personally hate driving past oil wells in that region just like I dislike cattle grazing near Yellowstone and GTNP. But then again I usually eat hamburger for lunch when I travel and drive a car to the trail head.

With that said I would probably die a little inside if a president decided to remove a National Park or Monument designation. Those decisions should not be "relitigated."
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Kinda like when I worked on the Kaibab NF out of Williams AZ. I marked timber right to the edge of Sycamore Canyon wilderness. Caught all sorts of flack from environmentalists. They wanted a buffer. I said NO.....if I was supposed to mark say 100 yds from the boundary then the boundary of the Wilderness area should be back there......their protest died. Kind of like driving by the oil wells......

The land should be multiple use with minimal acreage eliminated from one use or another. ..... My 2cents.
 
Bob said:
Kinda like when I worked on the Kaibab NF out of Williams AZ. I marked timber right to the edge of Sycamore Canyon wilderness. Caught all sorts of flack from environmentalists. They wanted a buffer. I said NO.....if I was supposed to mark say 100 yds from the boundary then the boundary of the Wilderness area should be back there......their protest died. Kind of like driving by the oil wells......

The land should be multiple use with minimal acreage eliminated from one use or another. ..... My 2cents.
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Warning: minor political rant-

I just want one day without some story about how the National Park system is going to get screwed blued or tattooed. It started with, God forbid, the NPS post pictures of the mall on Jan. 20th. Since then it's one political dust up after another. It is the most A-political topic of all time. Everyone loves national parks. No one has ever F'd with a park or monument before.
Ok, I'm done commenting on this topic. God bless.

End Rant
 
SKLund said:
Yo I think it's gettin on the radar.o_O

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Skimmed through it. Looks like Sundance trail. As far as I can tell, that lower section of Dark Canyon is more well known and is much more of a draw to people due to the water and swimmers holes. Even NOLS has done some courses down in that part.

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WasatchWill said:
Skimmed through it. Looks like Sundance trail. As far as I can tell, that lower section of Dark Canyon is more well known and is much more of a draw to people due to the water and swimmers holes. Even NOLS has done some courses down in that part.

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The NOLS groups just kill me...several years ago we were down there and there were three (!) groups of 12 down there at the same time (they were doing Youngs/Lean to loop). Two of the groups were together at one point. Seeing that many people together in a canyon is a bit disturbing. I've seen them in Larry also as well as more than once at the TH at Gravel Crossing. I think they must use several of the big Steve Allen loops.
 
WasatchWill said:
Skimmed through it. Looks like Sundance trail. As far as I can tell, that lower section of Dark Canyon is more well known and is much more of a draw to people due to the water and swimmers holes. Even NOLS has done some courses down in that part.

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That's where it is either that first pool when you get to the bottom or downstream where Young's Canyon intersects with Dark.

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Brendan S said:
The NOLS groups just kill me...several years ago we were down there and there were three (!) groups of 12 down there at the same time (they were doing Youngs/Lean to loop). Two of the groups were together at one point. Seeing that many people together in a canyon is a bit disturbing. I've seen them in Larry also as well as more than once at the TH at Gravel Crossing. I think they must use several of the big Steve Allen loops.
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Happens elsewhere too. I know someone who posted a group photo on Instagram a year or two ago with nearly 20 people at Coyote Bridge in Coyote Gulch they were leading. They got some flack from it. They stated that they went in as two groups, and just combined for the picture. Right. Even if that's all true, still not a good thing. Then they justified it by stating they were doing a good thing by introducing more people to a beautiful place outdoors.

That same person recently returned there with another group. This time her group photo showed the limit of 12 people. But then she posted another photo of herself rinsing off her eating utensil right in the creek itself as her caption seemingly bragged about it leaving no question what it was she was doing along with a shout-out to Mountain House. Ironically, if she loved her Mountain House meal so much, you'd think she'd have licked her utensil clean instead of using the creek to do it.:facepalm:

It's one thing to see an increase of people enjoying the outdoors and beautiful places on public lands. It's another thing if they are being led by anyone that doesn't set a good example of following rules, regulations, being courteous of others, and practicing LNT ethics. Then there's all the unsanitary hygiene items I've seen left right out in the open, or simply tucked under a rock (used TP, female hygiene products, etc). I'm all for gaining more advocates for preserving public lands and wilderness areas and sharing that with others who value such spaces as I do, but I'm not a fan of sharing it with those who don't care about what impact they have on it or how they may greatly disturb others nearby who aren't just there to enjoy the scenery but the therapeutic ambient sounds of the backcountry as well. There are those who truly are ignorant and just need to be educated and they will strive to do better as they learn, but then there are many who do know better or should know better but still seem to willfully ignore certain rules or other ethical practices because it just isn't convenient for them.
 
Brendan S said:
The NOLS groups just kill me...several years ago we were down there and there were three (!) groups of 12 down there at the same time (they were doing Youngs/Lean to loop). Two of the groups were together at one point. Seeing that many people together in a canyon is a bit disturbing. I've seen them in Larry also as well as more than once at the TH at Gravel Crossing. I think they must use several of the big Steve Allen loops.
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NOLS is supposed to be all about no impact but you can't put that many people in there without impacts.

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I cannot find current data on the net, but does anyone know what the visitation was on Cedar Mesa last year? Maybe I missed this earlier in the thread. Not just visits to the visitors center but permitted people who actually entered any of the canyons. With increased public knowledge about this area, has back country visitation increased?
We have seen a full parking lot @ Kane Gulch many times in the past, and cars parked out onto the highway quite a few times.
Is it worse now? I have not been there for a couple of years.
 
gnwatts said:
I cannot find current data on the net, but does anyone know what the visitation was on Cedar Mesa last year? Maybe I missed this earlier in the thread. Not just visits to the visitors center but permitted people who actually entered any of the canyons. With increased public knowledge about this area, has back country visitation increased?
We have seen a full parking lot @ Kane Gulch many times in the past, and cars parked out onto the highway quite a few times.
Is it worse now? I have not been there for a couple of years.
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You would probably have to get in touch with BLM Monticello and be very patient. I expect they are pretty busy at the moment and their budget is not getting any bigger. All the rest of it is anecdotal from us visitor types.
 
Personally.....Nols is crap.......its a big money making venture now.... thats why the push so many trips everywhere.
 
Kane Gulch actually has good data of canyon permits both day and night. They'll tell you they've had steady increase for the past 10 years (internet probably the cause) with a big spike above and beyond this historical growth since Monument designation. Word is out. Fish/Owl, the Mules, GG, Road Canyons consistent increasing permit requests. April/May/Sept/Oct. Don't think theyre open after October.
 
Thank you for the link, Nick. I prefer that independent format vs. a form email from FoCM or Sierra Club. Glad they are getting the action out but this is an opportunity for more personalization. Appreciated!
 
Nick said:
The comment period for this ridiculous monument reconsideration thing that Trump is doing is open. Please go to this link and tell them what you think:

https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=DOI-2017-0002-0001
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To clarify, this is the link to comment just on Bear's Ears, correct? I believe someone else in this thread mentioned there is one window for commenting on all the Monuments that will be under review by this ridiculous order, and a separate window for commenting on Bear's Ears specifically.
 
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