Bears Ears National Monument

That video is very well done. I've sat in my FJ up at the Sand Flats at night and watched the flares on the Island many miles away. I've also seen lots of the old tanks and other detritus in places like around Cisco and Price. I read a report that a lot of the old wells are still venting methane even though they're long abandoned. I once tried to camp above Price (out by the airport, wells there are active) and had to leave because I got an instant headache. This photo was taken near Price (out towards Pinnacle Peak):

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Rockskipper said:
That video is very well done. I've sat in my FJ up at the Sand Flats at night and watched the flares on the Island many miles away. I've also seen lots of the old tanks and other detritus in places like around Cisco and Price. I read a report that a lot of the old wells are still venting methane even though they're long abandoned. I once tried to camp above Price (out by the airport, wells there are active) and had to leave because I got an instant headache.
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Ever driven out through Aneth and around Hovenweep? What a mess they've made of that area with all the pads and rigs... :-(
 
IntrepidXJ said:
Kind of related to the Monument since they were pushing for it hard: http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/...r-mesa-has-its-executive-director-gone-rogue/

Hike to a secret site for $10,000!
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I just checked out their Kickstarter and they actually have one person already willing to pay for this. I suspect it's someone who would donate that much anyway, and I bet they get even more people biting on this big woolyburger of a lure, though it sounds like it's creating some internal friction. I remember when Ed Abbey's old beater Cadillac went up for auction, though I can't remember what charity the money went to or how much people donated.
 
Rockskipper said:
My extended family is primarily ranchers and people in the oil industry. I grew up around rednecks who abused everything while making fun of greeners and yet claiming to be stewards of the land. But some of my family were stewards, as my aunt and uncle built a pond on the ranch for the sandhills that migrated through, though they refused to tell the Department of Wildlife about it. You have to be careful to not paint people black or white, as they're too complex of a critter. I've seen destruction from rednecks and destruction from greeners. Right now I'm wondering what Jim Stiles thinks of all this, as he was against monument designation and yet not a fan of our current president.

I'm a redneck greener (went to undergrad in Logan and grad school in Boulder) and don't feel like I belong in either camp. All I really care about is the land and its flora and fauna, which theoretically includes people if they don't act like asses. Unfortunately, I've seen too many who have no regard for anything. Like the native writer Sherman Alexi says, Trump is turning our whole country into a reservation.Yukon Territory is starting to sound nice. Fewer than 50,000 people in the whole province.

/rant
/politics

Carry on.
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I have a friend in Kanab whose family has been there for 5 generations, and he has very unique points of view on these issues, all worth listening to. Most locals I've met don't fit into a box of either redneck or greener. What I've found that I don't agree with is the desire of a lot of locals to keep the land like it is by hoping no one finds out about it. They see monument designation as bringing hordes of people in, and there's truth in that. But in the age of the Internet, where anyone can hike into a remote area, take a selfie, then post it with GPS points for their million followers to see, that attitude is just putting your head in the sand. The rural way of life is changing, and there's nothing that's going to stop that. If you don't want your little town to become a sprawling metropolis (St. George is the 4th fastest growing city in the US, and my friend (who's in his 40's) remembers when it looked like Kanab) then action needs to be taken to preserve the land.

And yes, I agree overpopulation is the underlying problem. I did my part-no kids.
 
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Laura said:
I have a friend in Kanab whose family has been there for 5 generations, and he has very unique points of view on these issues, all worth listening to. Most locals I've met don't fit into a box of either redneck or greener. What I've found that I don't agree with is the desire of a lot of locals to keep the land like it is by hoping no one finds out about it. They see monument designation as bringing hordes of people in, and there's truth in that. But in the age of the Internet, where anyone can hike into a remote area, take a selfie, then post it with GPS points for their million followers to see, that attitude is just putting your head in the sand. The rural way of life is changing, and there's nothing that's going to stop that. If you don't want your little town to become a sprawling metropolis (St. George is the 4th fastest growing city in the US, and my friend remembers when it looked like Kanab) then action needs to be taken to preserve the land.

And yes, I agree overpopulation is the underlying problem. I did my part-no kids.
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I have some friends who live in and/or are from the Blanding area and have had similar discussions. I posed the question to all of my anti-monument friends on Facebook: "What can you do now that you couldn't do yesterday?". The result was a very in-depth and civil conversation that ultimately whittled it down to them just not wanting the added visitation and tourists in the area. In my opinion the fight over this has amplified that problem many times what it would have been with monument designation alone. I also feel that nothing can be done now to undo it, especially as the fight and the publicity rages on. While they are definitely happy to see the monument reduced, they tended to agree that that ship has sailed.

And x2 on over population. I did my part too! :D
 
Nick said:
I have some friends who live in and/or are from the Blanding area and have had similar discussions. I posed the question to all of my anti-monument friends on Facebook: "What can you do now that you couldn't do yesterday?". The result was a very in-depth and civil conversation that ultimately whittled it down to them just not wanting the added visitation and tourists in the area. In my opinion the fight over this has amplified that problem many times what it would have been with monument designation alone. I also feel that nothing can be done now to undo it, especially as the fight and the publicity rages on. While they are definitely happy to see the monument reduced, they tended to agree that that ship has sailed.

And x2 on over population. I did my part too! :D
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Exactly. And I do admit to see-sawing on that as well, though I'm not a multi-generational local in my hood. I get righteously upset when I drive to a local trailhead and a single other car is parked there. Oh, the horror. :rolleyes: I do tend to believe that those who visit and get an immersive experience in the land will actually really pay attention to its future and take steps, even just one, to help protect it. Long-time clients of mine who have been coming to this area (Capitol Reef and environs) since 2010 just emailed me this morning in concern, asking what might happen and how I felt about everything going on with the proposed GSENM stripping. They're from Texas, and none of their friends get it. But they've been here so many times, and I've taken them hiking all over the place, and they are just in total love with the area. They truly adore it here, it's their highlight vacation every year. I know they'll use their voices as they can to help steer others to see how worthy these areas are of real protections.

On the other hand, when the visitation is insane, I sometimes get pretty irritated as well if I'm being brutally honest, lol. New houses are popping up seemingly all over, Airbnb skyrocketed so out of control here that the town council put the kibosh on it, and the overflow camping all over the place during the season is sometimes fairly eye-popping. People, poop, n toilet paper all over the land at times, sad to say. It's nothing compared to Moab or Springdale, but seeing such change occur from visitation in a smaller area such as this one is definitely a little hard for those of us who do live here, especially when it's so much so fast.

No easy answers. Overall, though, I strongly say people have a right to visit and enjoy their public lands. The m.o. now, I think, needs to focus on continually educating them on how to do that with genuine respect and understanding for these fragile landscapes. And maybe steer them toward the busiest trails and keep them there. ;)
 
Nancy and I went to a panel discussion put on by Wilderness Workshop, moderated by Paul Larmar of High Country News. Heidi McIntosh, an attorney for Earthjustice talked about the suit they have filed in federal court. Mathew Campbell, an attorney for the Native American Rights Fund said they have also filed suit. He is representing the Hopi Tribe, Pueblo of Zuni, and Ute Mountain Ute Tribe. The highlight of the evening for me was Prof. John Leshy. He spoke forcefully and to the point. Trump is doing this out of spite. It is an attack aimed at Obama. He is systematically trying to alter substantial areas of our National Monuments, monuments declared by George Bush the younger, Clinton and Obama. There is no rhyme or reason to the altered boundaries, other than to cause as much damage as can possibly be done, and to enrich the extraction industries. Cutting 85% out of Bears Ears? Grand Staircase-Escalante by 50%?
Prof. Leshy said it's all about politics now, and the courts. They all feel they have an excellent case. But you never know.
In the end you have to vote. Any National Monument can be restored, hopefully by the next president.
 
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They talked about that, but it takes time. Damage can be done until then.
 
The panel was not as optimistic, because they might get the wrong judge. Are injunctions granted automatically?
Trump might get another 4 years. Complacency is not an option.
 
gnwatts said:
Are injunctions granted automatically?
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No, plaintiffs have to ask for injunctions or temporary restraining orders and they have to show an immediate threat of harm exists. To my knowledge, none of the parties that have sued so far have made such a request. The five tribes specifically said they have not yet because the president’s proclamation won’t take effect for 60 days.
 
All this talk about no kids and overpopulation has me almost feeling guilty for being the father of 6 kids now. I promise...no more. I've told my wife if she ever has another, it won't be mine! I also promise as a parent to teach my kids principles of good stewardship, consideration for others and our environment, and LNT ethics when out on our outdoor adventures. We all have an impact on the lands we recreate in...the idea, I think, is to minimize it as much as feasibly possible and then do what we can to pursue and support renewable resources as much as possible. I'm confident that if overpopulation really does hit a fever pitch at some point...some giant asteroid will find its way here fix that in a hurry. ;)
 
From the WaPo article posted earlier three very telling quotes
“I don’t yield to public pressure,” Zinke said Tuesday. “Sound public policy is not based on threats of lawsuit. It’s doing what’s right.”

and

"Zinke also rejected the idea that any of these alterations of existing monuments would amount to relinquishing control of federal land, describing such criticism as “nefarious, false and a lie.”"

and finally....

"House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Rep. Rob Bishop (R-Utah) commended Zinke on Tuesday for “actually listening to the people on the local level” and Trump for showing “some real courage against well-funded litigation machines.”"
 
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