backpacking & the state of the Art

backwoodsBob said:
Oh John, You are so mistaken it HURTS! ... ted turner and Hanoi Jayne have brainwashed you up there in Bozeman! let me help you out here brother.... That mindset is dangerous and I cant let it go unchallenged..

there are 3 folded and cased American Flags on my wall at home.... Hallowed and grim reminders of a price paid by my family, for Our freedoms in these United States.... No Government "LETS ME" or "GIVES ME PERMISSION" to exercise a God Given Right. (specifically in this case the right to peaceably assemble ) . the ONLY EXCEPTION to that rule IS private ground. (You cant bring your party to my house) or, in other words, your freedom to be you, INCLUDES my freedom to be free from you on my own private ground.
We now return you to your pleasant Backpacking thread....
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Hey, I have one of those flags in a case displayed on top of my frig too. And I don't think Ted and ex would approve of a lot of my thoughts but that's getting someplace we don't want to go. Right to assemble absolutely, but not to trash out any place you feel like, especially if I and everyone else who is a citizen of this country happen to own a share of it and have to pay the expense of cleaning up the fricken mess.


And no, you will not be having a Rainbow gathering on my ranch but I'm sure there are ranchers who would do that.


For the fee it takes to clean up the fricken mess.
 
so what is the general way it goes down when packing with a group now days in regards to meals? Im imagining everybody cooks their own individual meals these days.... another sad development if true! our party would carry a set of nesting pots and menu portions large enough to service the entire crew at meals. We cooked for familyon the trail. like, 12 packages of top ramen or instant potatos in one pot and a whole dry salami an crackers for all.... has it become simpler to just say meet at x bring your own meals?
 
I've always done bring/pack your own meals on backpacking trips. sometimes share a freeze dried meal (ie mountain house or Backpackers pantry) with another person. But each person usually had their own stuff sack/large zip lock bag of food...at least on my trips.
River trips are different, we'd bring dutch ovens and do family style dinners. breakfast and lunch is up to each person to bring.
 
John Goering said:
Hey, I have one of those flags in a case displayed on top of my frig too. And I don't think Ted and ex would approve of a lot of my thoughts but that's getting someplace we don't want to go. Right to assemble absolutely, but not to trash out any place you feel like, especially if I and everyone else who is a citizen of this country happen to own a share of it and have to pay the expense of cleaning up the fricken mess.


And no, you will not be having a Rainbow gathering on my ranch but I'm sure there are ranchers who would do that.


For the fee it takes to clean up the fricken mess.
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theres a lot of propaganda out there regarding gatherings that simply isn't true.... People are resistant to what they don't understand. folks "think" that a gathering is no more that a wild debaughery in the woods... the wild seed get all the headlines, and truth is often distorted. Id invite you to take a look at the USFS Impact statements post gathering. they are public record....

I could lead you to Utahs two gathering sights, 04 and 14 and you'd not be able to discern there was ever a party there. save for reduced deadfall at the latest sight, and a couple bridges that USFS asked us to leave up to aid the public... what most don't know, is rainbows work with USFS thru the entire project. the moment a prospective location fgor a gathering is selected by the scouting and seed camp community USFS is in the decision and policy loop. There is actually a dedicated incident team within USFS that works with Rainbow, We know them by name and recognize their faces. local governments are contacted... Communities nearby experience Boom financial profits. Weve moved sights over environmental concerns more than once. environmental impact is a prime concern with that community, I Guarantee more so than you likely imagine.

I don't speak for the Rainbow folks, BUt I do speak from my own personal experience. I was with the party that scouted last summers location above Heber. we scouted it in the spring as a time consumer while we waited for the uintas to thaw .... parking, firewood, fresh water for thousands. fire safety, access and egress, bus parking emergency transport, a meadow big enough to hold 15k folks. hiking feasibility, major camp locations, can the elderly get in? will radios work camp wide, locate the camp hospital.... this stuff dosent happen on a wish... and people STAY a month after the event, disappearing trails, and the like the USFS SIGHNS OFF ON .... I KNOW THIS ... IVE DONE IT. Your complaint is to a large degree conjecture rather than fact.
the gatherings original and true purpose, is to invite any who will come, usualy, 10 to 15 thousand people show, to hold hands in one Giant circle & pray for a world that can know peace, One that doesn't have to hang those flags on our walls ever again .... Its the most righteous , misunderstood endeavor Ive ever saddled up to. I recommend it!
 
i'm with @Joey about preparedness. i'm unconvinced there is any amount of preparation that can keep you dry after three days of rain, sans fire.



regarding meals, i share with family and friends, but would plan on cooking for my self with people i was less close to.
 
backwoodsBob said:
theres a lot of propaganda out there regarding gatherings that simply isn't true.... People are resistant to what they don't understand. folks "think" that a gathering is no more that a wild debaughery in the woods... the wild seed get all the headlines, and truth is often distorted. Id invite you to take a look at the USFS Impact statements post gathering. they are public record....

I could lead you to Utahs two gathering sights, 04 and 14 and you'd not be able to discern there was ever a party there. save for reduced deadfall at the latest sight, and a couple bridges that USFS asked us to leave up to aid the public... what most don't know, is rainbows work with USFS thru the entire project. the moment a prospective location fgor a gathering is selected by the scouting and seed camp community USFS is in the decision and policy loop. There is actually a dedicated incident team within USFS that works with Rainbow, We know them by name and recognize their faces. local governments are contacted... Communities nearby experience Boom financial profits. Weve moved sights over environmental concerns more than once. environmental impact is a prime concern with that community, I Guarantee more so than you likely imagine.

I don't speak for the Rainbow folks, BUt I do speak from my own personal experience. I was with the party that scouted last summers location above Heber. we scouted it in the spring as a time consumer while we waited for the uintas to thaw .... parking, firewood, fresh water for thousands. fire safety, access and egress, bus parking emergency transport, a meadow big enough to hold 15k folks. hiking feasibility, major camp locations, can the elderly get in? will radios work camp wide, locate the camp hospital.... this stuff dosent happen on a wish... and people STAY a month after the event, disappearing trails, and the like the USFS SIGHNS OFF ON .... I KNOW THIS ... IVE DONE IT. Your complaint is to a large degree conjecture rather than fact.
the gatherings original and true purpose, is to invite any who will come, usualy, 10 to 15 thousand people show, to hold hands in one Giant circle & pray for a world that can know peace, One that doesn't have to hang those flags on our walls ever again .... Its the most righteous , misunderstood endeavor Ive ever saddled up to. I recommend it!
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Yep you work with the FS. Do you pony up for the public time and resources spent to cover the gatherings? The last one of your events in Montana cost us over a half billion dollars, money much better spent hiring an army of wilderness rangers to clean up some of those backcountry fire rings in my opinion. I don't see this as any different from other special interest groups feeding at the public trough, be it rainbow or public grazing allotments. Motivation may be different (money versus debauchery), but the cost to tax payers is the same.
 
John Goering said:
Yep you work with the FS. Do you pony up for the public time and resources spent to cover the gatherings? The last one of your events in Montana cost us over a half billion dollars, money much better spent hiring an army of wilderness rangers to clean up some of those backcountry fire rings in my opinion. I don't see this as any different from other special interest groups feeding at the public trough, be it rainbow or public grazing allotments. Motivation may be different (money versus debauchery), but the cost to tax payers is the same.
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lessee.... Really? I think your figures are "just a little" off... Try... 400000. TRY that's 26 bucks per participant. http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_d8179cdc-6a89-5b86-b26e-e82b437ad43d.html how much do you suppose grocerys for 15000 people for a couple weeks and a couple tanks of gas for every 4 people in camp amount to John? not counting souvenirs, Ice, Candy, clothing.... sporting goods, coolers, we go into supermarkets with SEMIS and buy out the entire pproduce section every other day...(with warning) Your sporting goods stores sell out your gas stations triple their orders Rainbow spends money How do you think all those thousands of people GET three John?? HITCHIKE? .... all the stuff a "normal" city spends money on, Rainbow buys in bulk. how much tax revenue do you think that produces? iYour politicians LIED to you John... to raise your taxes.... Rainbow was their excuse. ( Oh oh! I hear a squeekie voice in the back ground.... what? whats that??? Oh! never mind (hes screaming.... SUCKER!!!!!! ) the average gathering produces
$45, 000.00 is Gasoline Taxes at the LOCAL city pums per week ALONE..... Dillons population is Only 4200.... WE TRIPPLED YOUR REVENUE FOR ALMOST A MONTH
 
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On a lighter note...

steve said:
Bob, check out this book. It will completely change the way you look at backpacking. Apart from the big 3 (tent, bag, pad), you don't need to spend big money to go lightweight.
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I finally ordered this book now after I think the second time I've seen you mention it. Good stuff in there. But I think this illustration is what really made it worth the $9.

upload_2015-1-9_23-5-20.png
 
Geez do some people really hate packing out TP that bad?

I always thought I had the book that Steve recommends, but I didn't recognize that picture so I looked through every page but couldn't find it. Then I realized I have a different book. Weird they are the same exact topic and definitely the same cartoonist but different author.

This is the one I have...

image.jpg
 
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Definitely late to the party. However...

In the past year I've cut my packweight in half, and even a little more. I've taken a two-fold approach to get there -

1) Take advantage of the latest materials. My pack is made out of Dyneema X. My shelter/raingear is made out of silnylon. The goose down in my sleeping bag is of very high quality.
2) Simplify, reduce, eliminate. This has been the lion's share of my gear list development. And when you think about it, there's nothing particularly novel about simplifying. If anything, simple is a return to our roots, by eliminating the extraneous crap. I don't carry a cookpot in three-season condiitons. My stove, when I carry one, is made out of a couple pop cans. I use a simple rucksack rather than a heavy framed pack. My shelter is little more than a tarp.

So is ultralight really a new phenomenon? Not really. It's a new coat of paint on an old idea. A more minimalist style, for me, has helped prevent a chronic ankle injury from flaring up. It's allowed me to spend less time on annoying camp chores. It's allowed me travel further than I would otherwise be able to, and see things I otherwise wouldn't see.
 
LarryBoy said:
So is ultralight really a new phenomenon? Not really. It's a new coat of paint on an old idea. A more minimalist style, for me, has helped prevent a chronic ankle injury from flaring up. It's allowed me to spend less time on annoying camp chores. It's allowed me travel further than I would otherwise be able to, and see things I otherwise wouldn't see.
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Yes and no. True, at least some of the ultra light tents today look just like the mid to late 60's vintage tents, only the materials differ. Tarps for tents? Boy would have one of those been fun in the Beartooth's last summer. Come to think of it, I used one of those someplace about 67 or 68 up there with the same results. Needed a blood transfusion by the time we got out of there.

But I absolutely wouldn't want to be using some of the packs I had in those days or the preceding decade. Both heavy and very uncomfortable with a suspension only slightly better than a hangman's noose. I'm all for light with these, but the question always comes back to how big it needs to be.

I look at all the tin can alcohol stoves and think wow, that's light. But then I think just how long is it going to take to boil the typical 1.5 to 2L of water we usually end up heating for meals for my wife, I and the dogs, and can you realistically fry a fish on one? My guess is the meals will be eaten (including the canine freeze dried dog food), the pot/bowls will be cleaned, and we will be off doing something else by using the MSR before that other pot would have boiled and the fuel consumed will actually be less (significantly more btu's/L in gas, diesel, or kerosene).

Everything in life is a compromise of some sort. No more so than when it comes to pack weight. As with just about anything, there will be the same number of ways of doing something as there is the number of people doing it and just about everyone's situation will be a bit different.
 
John Goering said:
Yes and no. True, at least some of the ultra light tents today look just like the mid to late 60's vintage tents, only the materials differ. Tarps for tents? Boy would have one of those been fun in the Beartooth's last summer. Come to think of it, I used one of those someplace about 67 or 68 up there with the same results. Needed a blood transfusion by the time we got out of there.
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I use a pyramidal tarp with bug netting around the bottom for insect environments. Works very effectively and weighs well under a pound, including stakes.

But I absolutely wouldn't want to be using some of the packs I had in those days or the preceding decade. Both heavy and very uncomfortable with a suspension only slightly better than a hangman's noose. I'm all for light with these, but the question always comes back to how big it needs to be.
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I'm half-and-half on this one. Grandma Gatewood famously used a duffel bag slung over one shoulder. That being said, older packs are generally monstrosities and double as lightning rods. Although how high-tech is it really to put two shoulder straps on a sack and call it a frameless pack?

I look at all the tin can alcohol stoves and think wow, that's light. But then I think just how long is it going to take to boil the typical 1.5 to 2L of water we usually end up heating for meals for my wife, I and the dogs, and can you realistically fry a fish on one? My guess is the meals will be eaten (including the canine freeze dried dog food), the pot/bowls will be cleaned, and we will be off doing something else by using the MSR before that other pot would have boiled and the fuel consumed will actually be less (significantly more btu's/L in gas, diesel, or kerosene).
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If you're cooking for a group, alky stoves are definitely a terrible choice. They're really only good for a one-person setup, and generally only boil water effectively. However, that's fine by me, as that's all I really need my stove system to do. I've used alcohol stoves on a long-term basis (several months at a time) and found them the most effective solution for my needs -
  • Lightweight
  • Easy fuel availability (HEET can be bought in any gas station)
  • Indestructible (step on it? Just bend it back into position)
  • Quiet (Jetboils are obnoxious)
  • Simple (can be repaired, or even constructed, with a pocket knife and a couple pop cans on the porch outside a convenience store)
  • Quick - just as fast as a canister stove when a good design is used.

Everything in life is a compromise of some sort. No more so than when it comes to pack weight. As with just about anything, there will be the same number of ways of doing something as there is the number of people doing it and just about everyone's situation will be a bit different.
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Agreed 100%. :)
 
I am surprised that no one has mentioned carrying a gun. I would have imaged that in the old days it would have been more common to carry a rife or handgun into the Wilderness on a backpacking trip. Every year I see a few people with a firearm outside of hunting season. I assume for protection from hippie backpackers.
 
Ha, lot's to agree and disagree on here as far as equipment used...... ends up to being personal preference of the individual.
Some nos for me: tarps are a no, alky stoves / white gas stoves a no, gun a no, saws, multitools, hatchets a no, fires usually a no, large groups a no, ipods/phones a no, the really light material a no (not tough enough), cans a no, alcohol on trail a no, could probably think of more nos.
 
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Bob said:
Ha, lot's to agree and disagree on here as far as equipment used...... ends up to being personal preference of the individual.
Some nos for me: tarps are a no, alky stoves / white gas stoves a no, gun a no, saws, multitools, hatchets a no, fires usually a no, large groups a no, ipods/phones a no, the really light material a no (not tough enough), cans a no, alcohol on trail a no, could probably think of more nos.
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Geez Bob. Not much left but hiking. I suppose you sleep sometimes.
 
Ha ........ that's what I go out for........ the backpacking, scenery, fishing .. and sleep in between. I don't want to waste time with anything else, and I don't want to carry anything unnecessary.
 
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