backpacking & the state of the Art

fiber said:
I am surprised that no one has mentioned carrying a gun. I would have imaged that in the old days it would have been more common to carry a rife or handgun into the Wilderness on a backpacking trip. Every year I see a few people with a firearm outside of hunting season. I assume for protection from hippie backpackers.
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This character looks highly dangerous. Shoot first, ask questions later.

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fiber said:
I am surprised that no one has mentioned carrying a gun. I would have imaged that in the old days it would have been more common to carry a rife or handgun into the Wilderness on a backpacking trip. Every year I see a few people with a firearm outside of hunting season. I assume for protection from hippie backpackers.
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Im not opposed to those who would carry in the woods..... for sporting, or protection or both. There are some very approachable / packable (visavi, lightweight) handguns out there, and mission specific firearms as well.
Smith & Wessons Airwight 38+p for example, weighs about as much as a boy scout messkit & would stop the average Hippy no doubt! , But it may leave you wanting should that Bigfoot thing or a grizzer bear decide to take issue with you. The downside to the Airweight handguns, is, there not "fun" to shoot. weight absorbs recoil... so after a half a box of shells your hand is feelin it to be sure...
There are some reduced weight big bore revolvers out there ...Smith & Wesson’s Mountain Gun series of revolvers has been very popular with Montananans I know, who pack a handgun into the wilderness. Its offered chambered for a few powerful centerfire cartridges, 45 colt, 44mag, stc, and most have been built from stainless steel. They are about as light and handy as a big bore double action sixgun can practically be.... above is a S&W Mountain, and below a S&W Airweight for comparison...

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Im not opposed to those who carry Because they can, or shoot in the woods for fun, If you want to carry a revolver or an AR, or a Bazooka that's Ok with me! . My ONLY issue with firearms in the woods is when those that have them, fail to practice judicious firearms Safety ....
 
BackwoodsBob, I find that people on the trail will be pretty social, and once they have a campsite keep to themselves. The more crowded lakes like Island lake on a weekend tends to be a party. more isolated lakes or during the week are more reserved. With that said, my Brother and I like to play music on our phone as we hike, and people more often than not stop and talk to us. Which is fine as I enjoy it and can lead to some good info, as like Nate I can get away with asking just about anything.

I think as a whole we lost our sense of community, Growing up you knew most of the people around you, for example my parents where fine with my brothers and I being out until dinner. That's all changed, we are way more introverted as a whole and seething with passive aggressiveness in general. Could be a lot of reasons but it has changed.

As to how many people carry guns its hard to tell. I always have mine concealed, people can get weird about guns.
 
I carry a 40 Cal with a light, but im thinking of switching to a 22 Cal for size/weight for the desert and the Uintas. For bears I have bear spray, and for that matter it would work wonders on just about anyone or anything. Worst case a few well placed 22's can be pretty deadly.

However, if I had to mess with a grizz and bear spray didn't take care of the issue I would want a high powered rifle or a 454. I spent a few years in Alaska and its always best to understand your not the top of the food chain and use common sense to avoid pissing off a moose or grizz. I always tell people I hike with if we get attacked stick around and fight, and not too run away. Most predators wont be that motivated to endure a few people hurting it. They want an easy meal.
 
Hurakan said:
I carry a 40 Cal with a light, but im thinking of switching to a 22 Cal for size/weight for the desert and the Uintas. For bears I have bear spray, and for that matter it would work wonders on just about anyone or anything. Worst case a few well placed 22's can be pretty deadly.

However, if I had to mess with a grizz and bear spray didn't take care of the issue I would want a high powered rifle or a 454. I spent a few years in Alaska and its always best to understand your not the top of the food chain and use common sense to avoid pissing off a moose or grizz. I always tell people I hike with if we get attacked stick around and fight, and not too run away. Most predators wont be that motivated to endure a few people hurting it. They want an easy meal.
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I think your reply is as common sensed and reality measured as it can be Hurakan! and I applaud it! I suspect a lot of folks leave the hand cannon at home over the weight, and, like the social dynamic you described, would be loath to create a lot of noise for others to be upset over... Im reminded of a deer hunt I went on years ago up by E fork of the bear, in the Uintas.... our party was back in camp for the night, it was dark and getting quite cold, Id guess it was around 10 or 11 pm....

We all heard the shots.... 3 rounds from quite a distance away.... my campmates all bitched someone was hunting (unsafe) after dark, But I recognized it for what it was, A distress call. (universal distress, 3 blasts, preferably 3 groups of 3) I retrieved a handgun from my pickup and fired 4 rounds into the ground, (2 groups of 2) and Immediately caught HELL from my campmates..... About an hour later that fellow who fired the 3 walked into our camp.... He had become hopelessly lost out there in the dark, and was ill prepared to spend a night out in the weather. we got him warmed up and fed, and connected with the road out to where he was reportedly camped. he credited my return signal with his getting found that night. & the fellows that gave me a dose of grief over discharging a pistol near camp learned a valuable lesson...
 
The people I backpack with have no issues with guns. Likely its due to they respect and use firearms enough to know its just a tool. Unfortunately, the news has vilified firearms and people equate them with mass atrocities, and little else. Back when I was a kid I always had a huge bowie knife and a pellet gun when I went into the foothills of Los Angeles and nobody thought twice about it. Nowadays, there would be a swat team and I probably would have been shot lol. Were defiantly a softer, more passive aggressive society than our grandparents generation and I feel sad about that. I really don't think much about it, If I hear hunters or people shooting its no business of mine and assume they are responsible enough not to start a fire or hurt someone. I could careless about a few rounds being fired, it never crossed my mind it could have been a signal. I would just use a storm whistle.

You really don't need a hand cannon if you can place your shots. legally, you have to be pretty damn close anyways to be threatened enough to shoot someone or thing. I only carry for worst case scenario's, and the fact that its comforting to have. Not too mention, the small game it can bring down if absolutely needed, which is pretty unlikely. The size to me depends on where I will be and what is needed. If im in grizzly country and had to hunt to survive would probably pack a 300 win mag and carry the weight gladly and have some tough dogs. But since we here hike for the enjoyment of being in the mountains and lighter is closer to godliness I pack down as much as I can. I have an FN 5.7 on the wish list.
 
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I don't know that stats/research but I'd be willing to bet that bear spray is more effective against a bear attack than a gun.
It is Super Bowl time, so I'm in a betting mood!
 
Parma said:
I don't know that stats/research but I'd be willing to bet that bear spray is more effective against a bear attack than a gun.
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You are absolutely correct. We've had a good thread or two about that subject here on BCP. I don't recall the stats either, but they were very much in favor of spray over a gun.
 
Hurakan said:
The people I backpack with have no issues with guns. Likely its due to they respect and use firearms enough to know its just a tool. Unfortunately, the news has vilified firearms and people equate them with mass atrocities, and little else. Back when I was a kid I always had a huge bowie knife and a pellet gun when I went into the foothills of Los Angeles and nobody thought twice about it. Nowadays, there would be a swat team and I probably would have been shot lol. Were defiantly a softer, more passive aggressive society than our grandparents generation and I feel sad about that. I really don't think much about it, If I hear hunters or people shooting its no business of mine and assume they are responsible enough not to start a fire or hurt someone. I could careless about a few rounds being fired, it never crossed my mind it could have been a signal. I would just use a storm whistle.

You really don't need a hand cannon if you can place your shots. legally, you have to be pretty damn close anyways to be threatened enough to shoot someone or thing. I only carry for worst case scenario's, and the fact that its comforting to have. Not too mention, the small game it can bring down if absolutely needed, which is pretty unlikely. The size to me depends on where I will be and what is needed. If im in grizzly country and had to hunt to survive would probably pack a 300 win mag and carry the weight gladly and have some tough dogs. But since we here hike for the enjoyment of being in the mountains and lighter is closer to godliness I pack down as much as I can. I have an FN 5.7 on the wish list.
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Just a tool for sure and for me, just a backup for bear spray. What one calls a hand cannon is somewhat subjective. I do have one of those (500 Smith and Wesson) but due to it's not so light weight, I'm usually packing the Smith Airlite 329 PD 44 mag. My choice round for the 44 is DoubleTap's 320 grain flat nose hard cast and you have to be mentally unstable and a saddest to ENJOY shooting those in that revolver. The recoil more than hurts-WAY more than big loads in the 500. But if you HAVE to plug a grizzly, anything less than a 44 mag with a heavy load is just asking for an even bigger heap of trouble. Do you actually need one? Not likely. Just another life insurance policy. And if I wasn't in griz country, I wouldn't be packing.

And I do find people shooting for the hell of it in the backcounty a little more than obnoxious. It shows a lot of disrespect for other users, legal or not.
 
Nick said:
You are absolutely correct. We've had a good thread or two about that subject here on BCP. I don't recall the stats either, but they were very much in favor of spray over a gun.
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I have a few problems with those stats. There is no break down on firearms, be it a 22 or a 500 S&W. And it does make one hell of a difference, as does the experience of the user. In my opinion, anything less than a 44 mag, you may as well just throw the whole firearm at them. Yes, if you don't spend any time honing your shooting skills, a can of bear spray takes a whole lot less talent to employ and is the better choice. Does it always work? No.

Last fall, the Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks finally came to the conclusion that hunters, when confronted with a potentially fatal grizzly encounter, should just use their firearm.
 
If I was out hunting and a grizzly came up on me, using my rifle seems like a no brainer.
A 30-06 , 308 or 7mm is pretty effective!
 
Parma said:
A 30-06 , 308 or 7mm is pretty effective!
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Enter the Smith & Wesson 500. A truly amazing handgun cartridge with muzzle energy as much or more than most 30-06 rounds. I've been having a bit of fun of late playing with hand loads for mine. I don't think packing a rifle on a backpacking trip is too practical unless someone has come up with a configuration that can also be used for a trekking pole and/or tent support. With all the stuff now on the market, guess I wouldn't be too surprised to find something like that these days.
 
John Goering said:
In my opinion, anything less than a 44 mag, you may as well just throw the whole firearm at them.

I have to agree with John on this matter... The only critter out there that gives me pause, and cause to carry, would be Bears. (or perhaps a Mountain Lion, but if one of those are after me, I give up! )... If the caliber doesn't start with the number 4 (in a handgun) against a bear your kidding yourself. Lighter caliber's (even a 357 mag would be a "maybe", simply cant penetrate a bears bone & musculature...and continue on to deal a death blow. at least on grizzers.... That's how they got their name!
The Lewis & Clarke expedition, upon their encounters with them found their firearms to be insufficient to bring one down...
The Indians warned Lewis and Clark about the Grizzly Bear, which they never attacked unless they were in a party of six to eight men. Here is an account of a Grizzly encounter in Lewis's own words having spotted a grizzly 300 yards away.
"…they took the advantage of a small eminence which concealed them and got within 40 paces of him unperceived, two of them reserved their fires as had been previously conscerted, the four others fired nearly at the same time and put each his bullet through him, two of the balls passed through the bulk of both lobes of his lungs, in an instant this monster ran at them with open mouth, the two who had reserved their fires discharged their pieces at him as he came towards them, boath of them struck him, one only slightly and the other fortunately broke his shoulder, this however only retarded his motion for a moment only, the men unable to reload their guns took to flight, the bear pursued and had very nearly overtaken them before they reached the river; two of the party betook themselves to a canoe and the others seperated an concealed themselves among the willows, reloaded their pieces, each discharged his piece at him as they had an opportunity they struck him several times again but the guns served only to direct the bear to them, in this manner he pursued two of them seperately so close that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and pouches and throw themselves into the river altho’ the bank was nearly twenty feet perpendicular; so enraged was this anamal that he plunged into the river only a few feet behind the second man he had compelled take refuge in the water, when one of those who still remained on shore shot him through the head and finally killed him; they then took him on shore and butchered him when they found eight balls had passed through him in different directions."
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Never shot the 500 but I have seen the brass and its impressive. Shot a few 454's with a 10 inch barrel w/ scope and I was impressed with the accuracy at 100 yards. I don't think you lose sleep at night John lol.

I hike mainly in the Uinta's, I'm sure one day if not soon we will see some grizzly's, I could have sworn I have heard wolves and some people I know swear they are there. The only things that I worry about are people and cats. Coyotes, bears and such, the dogs (Airedales) will keep away unless they wander too far and bring back trouble. I feel pretty safe there, in Alaska I always knew I had to be on my A game. More of a danger of running into a fresh kill or a pissed off moose. There is a reason people there use 454 and bigger. Even then a pissed off grizzly is nothing to laugh at even with a rifle. I had one charging across a stream from me that was scared off from a low flying F16 and he came thru the bushes and passed me so fast I honestly wouldn't have been able to draw fast enough to place shots.
 
I've backpacked and hiked in and around Yellowstone National Park for many years. While in the back-country I've always carried bear spray instead of a firearm. I've seen my fair share of bears in the back-country, usually at a reasonable distance. Last year, up the North Fork of the Yellowstone I had close encounter with a large male grizzly bear at a distance of roughly 15 feet. He was straddling the trail as I rounded a corner coming up and out of a drainage. This year, I had a second close encounter with a grizzly while backpacking up Arizona Creek in the Teton Wilderness. I came around a last stand of trees on the edge of Bailey Meadows and there was a grizzly 15 yards up ahead of me to my left and slightly uphill from my position.

On the North Fork encounter, I had no time to deploy my bear spray. As I rounded the corner in the trail, my first thought was, "Shit a Grizzly!" By the time I began to fully comprehend my predicament the bear was on the move. Fortunately, the bear bolted up the slope and disappeared into the forest. The lasting impressions I had from this encounter were the size of the bear's head (huge), the stare we were locked into for perhaps a second and finally the speed with which he went from a standstill to a full run. They are extremely fast!

While the encounter up Arizona Creek offered more distance between me and the bear (smaller than the North Fork Grizzly), I still don't believe that I could have deployed my spray in time if the bear had charged me. Again, I got lucky and the bear bolted, angling up and over the hill instead of at me. Once again, I was very impressed by the quickness and speed of the bear.

I don't believe anyone would be able to get a shot (firearm or bear spray) off at these distances if the bear is charging you. It all happens so quickly. If there is such a person, they would have to be cool, collected and calm as a cucumber to pull it off. I'd need to see it with my own eyes to believe it.
 
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