Article: Crisis in our national parks

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#61
I would rather see public land overrun with outdoor recreationists than be leased off to mineral and petroleum extraction industries or turned into a luxury housing development. My neighborhood borders on BLM and Forest Service land. As much as it sucks to have ATVs and giant trucks whizzing by me when I'm out riding or hiking, it's not my personal park. I've encountered multiple people in UT with the attitude that their local public land belongs only to them (and often that they should be able to do whatever they want with it). Several of these individuals have blocked legal access to public lands.

Regarding positive benefits of recreation, there was an economic analysis on the impact of GSENM tourism on the local economy. Utah NPs brought in an estimated $1B into the local economies in 2017 alone.
 

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slc_dan

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#62
I have spoken many locals near the Grand Staircase. All of them said the same thing: before it was made a monument, only a few people would ever go. They had the place to themselves, with maybe a few photographers and die-hard hikers. Once it was made a National Monument, people flocked to it and the solitude was lost. Now, more and more people go there and do the main headline hikes, but its nowhere near the amount of people Zion Has.

If you want to overrun a place with humans, just designate it a National Park or Monument. Never fails.

Yes, you can find solitude in the Parks, but you have to walk some distance to get to it. You can find plenty of solitude in Zion if you just go to the East Rim and go north or South of Route 9.

While times are changing in GSENM, I walked through Coyote Gulch in 94, and there was already a whole bunch of people down there. While a NP does bring more people, it generally concentrates them into a small area. Just like you said, walke a mile in and you generally have it to yourself.
 
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#63
Regarding positive benefits of recreation, there was an economic analysis on the impact of GSENM tourism on the local economy. Utah NPs brought in an estimated $1B into the local economies in 2017 alone.
Tourism economies tend to bring positive benefits mostly to the business owners who don’t pass it on to employees, who work for minimum wages. The cost of housing skyrockets, roads and infrastructure are overwhelmed, and places turn into zoos, like Moab. Many of the locals see their lifestyles compromised for the worse, not better.

Extractive industries can wreck a landscape and drive up housing costs also, but generally tend to have less of an immediate effect on the locals, other than providing better paying jobs, though fewer than tourism. Having lived in both, I would almost prefer an oil town to a tourist town, but not quite. It just seems both are undesirable to me anymore. Nebraska is looking better every day.
 
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#64
I am reading the journal of an expedition to Yellowstone in 1876, so 140 years ago. The write notes the massive damage being done by ignorant fools, who are using shovels and axes to break off pieces of the major thermal feature for souvenirs, and writing their names on rocks to toss into the larger geyser pools. HE complains that there should be more law enforcement to protect these features and punish those who are responsible.

Note that this was before the telephone was in use. So much for blaming social media.
 

Perry

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#65
There have always been idiotic, short-sighted people, and always will be. However now with social media “advertising” novelties of nature it just brings them out en masse.


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#66
I am reading the journal of an expedition to Yellowstone in 1876, so 140 years ago. The write notes the massive damage being done by ignorant fools, who are using shovels and axes to break off pieces of the major thermal feature for souvenirs, and writing their names on rocks to toss into the larger geyser pools. HE complains that there should be more law enforcement to protect these features and punish those who are responsible.

Note that this was before the telephone was in use. So much for blaming social media.
How many people were doing this? Add today's social media and that number would've been multiplied by many factors.
 

Kmatjhwy

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#67
Now what is wrong with today's people and social media. This is all just my opinion which have to state. Guess at almost 62 years old, I am old school and love it!!! Now I do not have a I-phone or a cellphone or whatever you want to call those inferno devices. And I absolutely love living without a phone!!! The only time I get on the Internet is usually here at the Jackson Hole library. Love it when I can just walk away from everything concerning the Internet. Also as for Facebook (which I call Fakebook), and other social media like Twitter, Instagram, etc. ... I refuse to have anything to do with any of them!!! And t is sooooo wonderful to live a life without any of them! I just have an old email address which use at that is it. Good living without. I remember the old days where one had an old dial up phone in the house and that was it. Those were the really good old days!!!!

As for the Parks and the Wilderness, people need to learn to leave their techno devices at home. And then when they go out into the wilds .... Just Go and Enjoy!!! This includes learning how to live and living life unconnected for a good long while without any techno device. How many generations living for thousands of years back, lived good long lives without anything Internet. And now days some people can't go by a day without checking their freaking phones or such. This just gets to me bigtime. It seems how many people can't live without their daily social media. Good Grief! Do think personally all of this social media is taking society down the drain. These people need to put their phones on the shelf and go for a long long long walk in the wilds all by their lonesome, to engage in real reality - to engage with the Real World which is the natural Wild World that always has been.

Again it is soooo wonderful living without Fakebook and without a freaking phone. Just my opinion for whatever it is worth!
 
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#68
My dad was a HAM, so he could talk to anyone anywhere, and I grew up talking to people in faraway places on his rig before cell and internet communication was so common. It was way cool. Now, people communicate easily from all around the world, and it seems the easier it gets, the less I want to talk to anyone. But when you think of it, even Richard Proenneke was into technology and selfies, way back then. :)
 
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#69
Tourism economies tend to bring positive benefits mostly to the business owners who don’t pass it on to employees, who work for minimum wages. The cost of housing skyrockets, roads and infrastructure are overwhelmed, and places turn into zoos, like Moab. Many of the locals see their lifestyles compromised for the worse, not better.
How many of those making NIMBY comments are supporting raising the minimum wage or patronizing/running local businesses that pay higher wages with associated higher cost to consumers? We can't even adequately fund schools in UT since people are unwilling to pay additional taxes. With increased population comes increased demand for outdoor spaces. How many are willing to forego reproducing?

We're talking about formerly dying towns with mineral and oil extraction and welfare ranching as the primary job providers. That's hardly sustainable. The mining and extraction companies don't give a shit about their workers or the environment, only profit. After extraction they often declare bankruptcy and leave behind a toxic mess for the government (aka taxpayers) to clean up. For example in UT alone:
 
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#70
How many of those making NIMBY comments are supporting raising the minimum wage or patronizing/running local businesses that pay higher wages with associated higher cost to consumers? We can't even adequately fund schools in UT since people are unwilling to pay additional taxes. With increased population comes increased demand for outdoor spaces. How many are willing to forego reproducing?

We're talking about formerly dying towns with mineral and oil extraction and welfare ranching as the primary job providers. That's hardly sustainable. The mining and extraction companies don't give a shit about their workers or the environment, only profit. After extraction they often declare bankruptcy and leave behind a toxic mess for the government (aka taxpayers) to clean up. For example in UT alone:
If mineral and oil extraction aren't sustainable, then how do all those tourists fly/drive to their destinations? Surely fossil fuels are involved somehow (unless I'm misunderstanding how internal combustion engines work).

Did you even read the articles you used as examples? The Horizon Coal Mine (right in my backyard) didn't have a bond, but they did put up collateral that DOGM says will be sufficient to clean up the mine site. How is that burden being placed on the taxpayers?

I fail to see how paying workers more will solve any of the problems you mention. Reducing the population, however, sounds like a good idea to me.
 

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gnwatts

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#71
Surprise! People procreate. And you can't keep them from visiting a National Park. Deal with it.
Humans should have wondrous places to see. Even if there are swarms of tourists walking in the Virgin River, it is still a wonder. My clearest memory of our visit to Zion was my 5 year old son walking in that gorge, along with all of those Californians. A person living in some shithole somewhere, breathing toxic air and dodging bullets, needs to experience a place like Zion. Our National Parks and Monuments belong to everyone, and everyone should be able to experience it. Our government needs to fund our parks, and find creative solutions to these issues.
Everyone benefits when people can get out and walk barefoot in a river.
 

LarryBoy

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#72
Point of clarification - are we allowed to dodge flying bullets inside our National Parks?
 

LarryBoy

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#74
Just hang out in the park visitor center. It's illegal to shoot in a federal building. :)
Well, technically, it's illigal to discharge a firearm in a National Park. Legal to carry (although not in a building), illegal to fire. So I should be safe huh?
 
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#75
Well, technically, it's illigal to discharge a firearm in a National Park. Legal to carry (although not in a building), illegal to fire. So I should be safe huh?
Not necessarily, unless bullets stop at park boundaries. You need to carry so you can shoot back to let the shooters know you’re in their line of fire, but you’ll probably get a ticket since you’re in the park. Probably best to just stay in the visitor center. They all have nice books you can read about the hikes. That way if you do get shot it will probably be by a ranger stopping by to get a coffee who forgot to put his safety on, and you can sue...wait, you can’t sue a federal agency...well shoots, just go fishin’.
 
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LarryBoy

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#76
Not necessarily, unless bullets stop at park boundaries. You need to carry so you can shoot back to let the shooters know you’re in their line of fire, but you’ll probably get a ticket since you’re in the park. Probably best to just stay in the visitor center. They all have nice books you can read about the hikes. That way if you do get shot it will probably be by a ranger stopping by to get a coffee who forgot to put his safety on, and you can sue...wait, you can’t sue a federal agency...well shoots, just go fishin’.
Or just go to that new brewpub in Colorado City. Much safer there.
 
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#77
Is it the one where they serve Lost Boys Brew and Shortcreek Pale Ale?
 

LarryBoy

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#78
Is it the one where they serve Lost Boys Brew and Shortcreek Pale Ale?
So fun story, I just happened to be there on opening night a few months this past March. I was walking through Hildale/CO City on the Hayduke, and was bummed because, although there's a great grocery on 389, there's no real restuarant to speak of in town (just some microwave burritos at that little gas station). And my last hot meal had been 9 or 10 days prior at the South Rim, so I was jonesing pretty hard for something yummy. Anyhoo, I'm walking down Main and I happen to look in the one building window not protected by sheet metal fencing and... BEER KEGS?? Whaaaa?

I poke my head inside, half expecting to be met with a shotgun, but nope, there's 10-15 people in there, all drinking. It had opened about an hour and a half earlier for the first time. So I sat down, ordered myself a brewski and got some food. Great success!

I know 3 or 4 people who've been there since, and none of us have gotten any of their own beer because they keep selling out faster than they can brew it. So they must be doing decent business...
 
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#79
So fun story, I just happened to be there on opening night a few months this past March. I was walking through Hildale/CO City on the Hayduke, and was bummed because, although there's a great grocery on 389, there's no real restuarant to speak of in town (just some microwave burritos at that little gas station). And my last hot meal had been 9 or 10 days prior at the South Rim, so I was jonesing pretty hard for something yummy. Anyhoo, I'm walking down Main and I happen to look in the one building window not protected by sheet metal fencing and... BEER KEGS?? Whaaaa?

I poke my head inside, half expecting to be met with a shotgun, but nope, there's 10-15 people in there, all drinking. It had opened about an hour and a half earlier for the first time. So I sat down, ordered myself a brewski and got some food. Great success!

I know 3 or 4 people who've been there since, and none of us have gotten any of their own beer because they keep selling out faster than they can brew it. So they must be doing decent business...
I thought you were kidding. Wow, big change.
 

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