Wow! This has me rethinking my gear choices...

[Perry]

This is probably old news to many of you but I just ran across this video of Andrew Skurka presenting a clinic at Google. It is having me rethink so many things...

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[Mike K]

Looks like a fun video. Too long for me to watch right now. I'll have to try to get to it later. What are some of the major things you're rethinking?

 

[Wanderlust073]

He's giving this same lecture up in Golden at the Colorado Mountain Club the evening of April 20th. I think it's the same anyway:

https://www.cmc.org/EventDetails.aspx?ID=36511

 

[Perry]

Looks like a fun video. Too long for me to watch right now. I'll have to try to get to it later. What are some of the major things you're rethinking?

Literally there were a bunch of topics. Here are a few...

• Shelters. He just did one of his mega-mile trips using only a tarp and a down quilt.

• Non-water-proof trail running shoes instead of waterproof hiking shoes/boots, even with a 40 lb pack.

• About the most basic cat food can alcohol stove I've seen yet... empty can with some holes in the side.

• His take on "waterproof" shells... pretty much you're going to get wet no matter what gear. (This is one of the arguments for the trail runner shoes, too)

That's a start.

 

[Wanderlust073]

I forget if this is the video where he talks about 'literally scaring the shit out of a grizzly' but man that's a good story, lol.

 

[Mike K]

Literally there were a bunch of topics. Here are a few...

Ah...good stuff. It would be nice to start using a simple shelter, switch to trail runners, and ditch my isopro containers. It looks like a cool video for sure. Thanks for sharing the link and posting those bullet points.

 

[Perry]

I forget if this is the video where he talks about 'literally scaring the shit out of a grizzly' but man that's a good story, lol.

He refers to a video where he talked about it.

 

[Dave]

Watched it last night. Interesting food for thought, thanks for sharing.

 

[WasatchWill]

I watched this a long time ago. He's basically teaching all about Ultralight principles. There's other threads on here that have discussed much of this. I've definitely adapted much of these principles to my own system(s), for example, I have made and do use the cat can stove on certain trips. I have given up waterproof boots and switched to breathable lightweight hiking shoes (a little sturdier, albeit a little heavier, than actual trail runners). As has been said elsewhere, I it all comes down to your trip objectives as well...

• Will you be hiking to place where you'll set up a basecamp and then do little day hikes and summits from there?
• Will you be spending lots of time in and around camp doing leisure activities like fishing and reading?
• Will there significant elevation gains and losses, high mountain passes, etc. or will the route be very gradual and level?
• What kind of terrain? Will you be staying on trail or going off trail?
• Are you putting in mega miles each day like a thru-hiker to see more scenery and/or complete a long trail/route in a limited amount of time?
• Are you thru-hiking?

I think the type of hike/trip and the objectives you have for it largely dictate what and how you may want to pack. If you are hiking just a few easy miles to a basecamp where you'll spend a whole weekend or just hiking a few miles each day at leisurely pace as you move camp each day, it may be worth packing a few extra luxury and weightier items to make your camp more comfortable and your cooking a little more gourmet and so on, or in other words what I like to call "traditional" backapcking . If you're thru-hiking and/or putting in mega miles, then the Ultralight philosophy makes a lot of sense and is highly advisable. Most of my trips tend to fall in between these paramaters. Because most of the trips I like to take, especially here in Utah, is through variable terrain and sees a lot of elevation gain and losses, and because I tend to hike 10+ miles a day on multi-day hikes, and move my camp each night on multi-day hikes more often than not, I have found great value in lightening my load where possible and where affordable over time. "Less is more" often applies here. I have found that I can choose to be comfortable on the trail with a modest sacrifice in camp comfort or I can choose to have a super comfortable, convenient, and luxurious camp at the expense of being a lot less comfortable on the trail.

For Skurka, it's about maximizing every moment of daylight with as much mileage as he can get in, to hike and camp as efficiently as he possibly can while covering the greatest amount of distance he can within whatever amount of time he wants to challenge himself with. His style for most of his trips he's done thus far has not been about hiking a few miles up to a lake or whatever to then do some fishing and leisure reading and what not. So again, adapt what makes sense to you for the kind of trips you do.

 

[Perry]

I watched this a long time ago. He's basically teaching all about Ultralight principles. There's other threads on here that have discussed much of this. I've definitely adapted much of these principles to my own system(s), for example, I have made and do use the cat can stove on certain trips. I have given up waterproof boots and switched to breathable lightweight hiking shoes (a little sturdier, albeit a little heavier, than actual trail runners). As has been said elsewhere, I it all comes down to your trip objectives as well...

• Will you be hiking to place where you'll set up a basecamp and then do little day hikes and summits from there?
• Will you be spending lots of time in and around camp doing leisure activities like fishing and reading?
• Will there significant elevation gains and losses, high mountain passes, etc. or will the route be very gradual and level?
• What kind of terrain? Will you be staying on trail or going off trail?
• Are you putting in mega miles each day like a thru-hiker to see more scenery and/or complete a long trail/route in a limited amount of time?
• Are you thru-hiking?

I think the type of hike/trip and the objectives you have for it largely dictate what and how you may want to pack. If you are hiking just a few easy miles to a basecamp where you'll spend a whole weekend or just hiking a few miles each day at leisurely pace as you move camp each day, it may be worth packing a few extra luxury and weightier items to make your camp more comfortable and your cooking a little more gourmet and so on, or in other words what I like to call "traditional" backapcking . If you're thru-hiking and/or putting in mega miles, then the Ultralight philosophy makes a lot of sense and is highly advisable. Most of my trips tend to fall in between these paramaters. Because most of the trips I like to take, especially here in Utah, is through variable terrain and sees a lot of elevation gain and losses, and because I tend to hike 10+ miles a day on multi-day hikes, and move my camp each night on multi-day hikes more often than not, I have found great value in lightening my load where possible and where affordable over time. "Less is more" often applies here. I have found that I can choose to be comfortable on the trail with a modest sacrifice in camp comfort or I can choose to have a super comfortable, convenient, and luxurious camp at the expense of being a lot less comfortable on the trail.

For Skurka, it's about maximizing every moment of daylight with as much mileage as he can get in, to hike and camp as efficiently as he possibly can while covering the greatest amount of distance he can within whatever amount of time he wants to challenge himself with. His style for most of his trips he's done thus far has not been about hiking a few miles up to a lake or whatever to then do some fishing and leisure reading and what not. So again, adapt what makes sense to you for the kind of trips you do.

On the stove question... in what situations do you choose the alcohol stove over a gas or canister stove?


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[pstm13]

I agree with the majority of his opinions but disagree strongly with his views regarding waterproof/breathable fabrics and a few other things. DWR is easily revived or reapplied. Gore Tex is not perfect but works very well in conjunction with pit zips in my experience. His comment on waterproof boots/shoes is also flat wrong in this video. Basically, it takes some effort in maintaining gear and solid gear choices but there is no reason to be wet and uncomfortable on the trail.

 

[pstm13]

On the stove question... in what situations do you choose the alcohol stove over a gas or canister stove?


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My favorite website on stove choice. It takes it down to basic math. If you are solo and have experience with those cat stoves then take one. Otherwise in a group, a canister stove or even a Whisperlite white gas stove can actually be lighter weight on a multi-day trip. That is because alcohol stoves burn colder and take more fuel. They totally suck in the wind and cold weather. You will boil water in 12 minutes if you are luck v 2.5 min with a jetboil.

I forget if this is the video where he talks about 'literally scaring the shit out of a grizzly' but man that's a good story, lol.

Yup that's the one.

 

[WasatchWill]

On the stove question... in what situations do you choose the alcohol stove over a gas or canister stove?


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Sometimes it's a toss-up. I like how I can measure out exactly the amount of fuel I plan to use (plus maybe a little extra) and then being able to return back with a container completely empty. An empty plastic bottle weighs much less than a half used canister. And then for the stoves themselves, there's no comparison with the weight of a cat can and foil windscreen vs the lightest titanium canister stove. It does take a lot longer to bring water to a boil though. So with that all said, I will still do canisters when I'm out in colder weather and know that I'll want to hot drink or warm meal sooner. If going out on a week+ extended trip (I've never done more than 6 days), a canister might make more sense because there is a point where the amount of alcohol or HEET you'd need to take will weigh much more up front than a full canister that can otherwise boil the same amount of water over the course of the trip, so the efficiency of the canister stove would probably win out there.

I received a little titanium Esbit stove as a Christmas gift which weighs almost nothing as well, so I'll probably start trying out that set up with Esbit tablets to see how I like it. For canister stoves, I have a Snowpeak Gigapower, a cheap BRS ultralight stove off of Amazon, and an MSR Wind Pro for frigid winter conditions. For cookpots, I'm always deciding between my GSI Minimilist, GSI kettle, a Stanco grease pot, and now a Olicamp XTS pot. I recently picked up the latter because it has a heat exchanger built into it. I always admired the efficiency of a Jetboil but have always thought that even the lightest jetboil system weighed more than what I wanted to carry for what it does or can do nor did I feel it was worth the cost. I like that the XTS was much cheaper and can be paired with any of my existing stoves including an alcohol stove, so there is a lot of versatility with that. I'll definitely be experimenting with a number of different combinations of cooking gear this year. I'm indecisive like that and think its fun to tinker and experiment with different setups.

 

[WasatchWill]

I agree with the majority of his opinions but disagree strongly with his views regarding waterproof/breathable fabrics and a few other things. DWR is easily revived or reapplied. Gore Tex is not perfect but works very well in conjunction with pit zips in my experience. His comment on waterproof boots/shoes is also flat wrong in this video. Basically, it takes some effort in maintaining gear and solid gear choices but there is no reason to be wet and uncomfortable on the trail.

I've yet to wear a pair of actual gore-tex footwear, but I have had some Merrell shoes with a supposed "waterproof breathable membrane" and other cheaper so called waterproof boots. While the Merrell shoes had very comfortable soles, I found that they were very warm and caused my feet to sweat more so than they do with straight up breathable shoes and I found that there was a point where water flowing down sections of trail would still find their way into them. In other words, whether by sweat from the interior or water from the exterior, feet will get wet. So I think it makes sense to just save the money on the waterproof stuff and go with breathable footwear, at least for the summer and more mild conditions. And even if it turns out to be a rainy day, the breathable shoes, with insoles removed have been a lot quicker to dry for me overnight than the others have. Of course, when it comes to winter and snow, then it's a whole different ballgame and I appreciate a good pair of warmer, insulated, and waterproof footwear.

 

[regehr]

I guess I"m lacking some key skills but I've tried to make a tarp work in the desert and haven't had good luck. One very windy evening I spent an hour or so trying different arrangements and every single one of them caught the wind badly after a few minutes and pulled out the stakes/rocks. Perhaps giant rocks would have been the answer but those aren't always available.

 

[Parma]

@pstm13 I think what he means by the waterproof shoe point is that if you are in constant rain and doing so over multiple days on a very long thru hike, your feet will get wet no matter what. The water will find its way into your shoe eventually.
@Andrew Skurka has also listed the Salomon gore-tex boot as his preferred boot when he hunts. So for shorter trips he admits having a good gore-tex boot is nice.

 

[pstm13]

@pstm13 I think what he means by the waterproof shoe point is that if you are in constant rain and doing so over multiple days on a very long thru hike, your feet will get wet no matter what. The water will find its way into your shoe eventually.
@Andrew Skurka has also listed the Salomon gore-tex boot as his preferred boot when he hunts. So for shorter trips he admits having a good gore-tex boot is nice.

First of all, I really like and respect Skurka as a world class outdoorsman. He truly deserves all the attention he is getting. I am just some guy from Idaho with an opinion and a smart phone. He has personally responded to me when I left comments on his website. In doing so, he tends to be fairly blunt and speaks his mind. I therefore feel free to respectfully do the same. I have and would say these same things to him directly. To his credit he appears open minded and willing to kick ideas back and forth. He posts to this site from time to time and listed it as one of the best around (think it is THE best around).

That said,

I agree with your comments. That is my overall impression as well. However, in the video a girl asks about walking in the snow. He basically says you are going to get wet and cold and there is nothing you can do about it. I doubt she was taking a 1,000 mile trip through Alaska. Her boyfriend was probably pissed when she bailed on a hike through the Sierras or at least threatened to do so. It is simply not true that you have to have wet cold feet in the rain and/or snow. Like you said a good GTX boot works great on relatively shorter trips. He also recommendations GTX jackets and talks trash about DWR that is super easy to recharge or reapply. My concern is that he is full of mixed messages as he takes a stance verbally then contradicts it directly with his recommendations. This makes all the conditional statements hard to follow. It would help a lot of beginners if he would clean up his message.

And yes, areas like Alaska and Russia are a different story all together. I've never been but my dad spent a few weeks in Russia fishing areas newly opened to westerners 15 or so years ago. He lived in his GTX waders while hiking through the super wet rainy forests similar to some areas of Alaska. You either add significant weight through gear or cut your losses and embrace the suck. If you are doing 1000 miles solo then weight is key and it's just going to suck. However, that doesn't apply to 99.9% of people. Most people can apply "hunting" suggestions.

There are a lot of really good concepts in the video. One of which is the UL shelter. Like he mentions the details of the trip need to be examined to make sure a minimalist shelter is appropriate. He also uses a bivy along with a tarp. My advise is to test things out to make sure they work for you. It's your ass that will be freezing or worse if it doesn't work out.



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[pstm13]

I've yet to wear a pair of actual gore-tex footwear, but I have had some Merrell shoes with a supposed "waterproof breathable membrane" and other cheaper so called waterproof boots. While the Merrell shoes had very comfortable soles, I found that they were very warm and caused my feet to sweat more so than they do with straight up breathable shoes and I found that there was a point where water flowing down sections of trail would still find their way into them. In other words, whether by sweat from the interior or water from the exterior, feet will get wet. So I think it makes sense to just save the money on the waterproof stuff and go with breathable footwear, at least for the summer and more mild conditions. And even if it turns out to be a rainy day, the breathable shoes, with insoles removed have been a lot quicker to dry for me overnight than the others have. Of course, when it comes to winter and snow, then it's a whole different ballgame and I appreciate a good pair of warmer, insulated, and waterproof footwear.

Non GTX boots/shoes from Merrell kinda suck. They tend to develop more holes than GTX models over time. My wife has a similar pair of Merrells. I did the "fill the boot with water" test before a trip and the amount of water running out the was comical .I gave up on trying to patch the leaks. Assuming the opening is covered with gaiters or long rain pants, my GTX boots and shoes have performed very well if maintained properly. GTX models tend to develop fewer leaks over time. However, if a leak does develop they can be patched with gear tape on the inside after the "fill with water" test. Also, a DWR may need to be reapplied every year or so if water does not bead. I have spend multiple days in the rain on sections of the CDT and TCT the last few years. My GTX shoes/boots have never let me down. I have also purchased GTX socks but have yet to test them out of a significant trip. This is an option frequently discussed by thru hikers who prefer trail runners sans GTX. I picked up a pair on eBay for $25. The most uncomfortable trips have been in Upper Salt Creek in the spring of 2013 and Glacier NP just after the June 2014 freak snow storm. I had standard trail type shoes and Merrell Moabs with no waterproofing because I read similar posts about waterproof boots/shoes.

 

[Perry]

Non GTX boots/shoes from Merrell kinda suck. They tend to develop more holes than GTX models over time. My wife has a similar pair of Merrells. I did the "fill the boot with water" test before a trip and the amount of water running out the was comical .I gave up on trying to patch the leaks. Assuming the opening is covered with gaiters or long rain pants, my GTX boots and shoes have performed very well if maintained properly. GTX models tend to develop fewer leaks over time. However, if a leak does develop they can be patched with gear tape on the inside after the "fill with water" test. Also, a DWR may need to be reapplied every year or so if water does not bead. I have spend multiple days in the rain on sections of the CDT and TCT the last few years. My GTX shoes/boots have never let me down. I have also purchased GTX socks but have yet to test them out of a significant trip. This is an option frequently discussed by thru hikers who prefer trail runners sans GTX. I picked up a pair on eBay for $25. The most uncomfortable trips have been in Upper Salt Creek in the spring of 2013 and Glacier NP just after the June 2014 freak snow storm. I had standard trail type shoes and Merrell Moabs with no waterproofing because I read similar posts about waterproof boots/shoes.

So what made them uncomfortable?


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[Perry]

My favorite website on stove choice. It takes it down to basic math. If you are solo and have experience with those cat stoves then take one. Otherwise in a group, a canister stove or even a Whisperlite white gas stove can actually be lighter weight on a multi-day trip. That is because alcohol stoves burn colder and take more fuel. They totally suck in the wind and cold weather. You will boil water in 12 minutes if you are luck v 2.5 min with a jetboil.

Yup that's the one.

That web site is intriguing. Going to punch in some numbers to see what I get. Thanks for that!


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