Southern UT, Late June

Okay, so an update:

I purchased my airfare today. I took the advice from @piper01 and @JulieKT and bought flights into St. George instead of Las Vegas. I'm a little bummed because my wife was originally able to fly out on the 24th but she can't leave until the 25th now.

I also applied for a permit to Coyote Buttes North, but from what you guys explained and what I read online when applying, it's only about a 5% chance we'll get 2 of the 10 permits issued in the online lottery. So I'm pretty sure it was just a $7 donation.

My plan before we lost a day was to do the following. I'll obviously have to change now that we're coming in a day later. I'm sure I would have changed several times before June anyways.

Day 1 - West Rim top to bottom including Angel's Landing
Day 2 - Coyote Buttes North (if I miraculously get the permits) otherwise Observation Point maybe?
Days 3 & 4 - Narrows thru-hike top down (I believe I can't apply for this camping permit until March 1st, correct?)
Day 5 - Bryce Canyon - Navajo/Queens Garden Loop

Now that I'm a day short, what would you guys get rid of? Should I toss out observation point if I don't get the wave permit? I figure the view from observation point can't be THAT much different than from the West Rim and Angel's landing? But I'm from New Jersey so what do I know. Should I just dayhike the Narrows instead of overnighting it?

Also, would this be an option... Since our flight arrives in St. George at 12:50pm, would we have time to fit in anything that day? We'd be pretty tired from a long flight and I've read about avoiding the mid-day heat, but maybe something short/easy? Does it make sense to consider starting the West Rim trail late afternoon that day and get a head start instead of dayhiking it all the next day?

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my two cents, coming from idaho. when coyote buttes falls through i'd pass on observation point. the view is the same as that from angel's landing, only from farther back and higher up. doing both would be only slightly redundant. if you do get the coyote buttes permit though, i would definitely take that opportunity. and if you go out there, please take at least a couple hours to walk through wire pass and into buckskin gulch. even if you have to give up a little bit of time some where else. some people might tell you to pass on bryce, but i think that bryce is totally worth a day, and some thing that i imagine your wife would really appreciate. but that's just a guess.

regarding your flight. i don't think that i would seriously consider starting the west rim hike that late in the day, because all but one of the campsites are probably at least eight miles from the start at the top. the one that is closer might be a mile from the start, at most. i don't think any of them are very good options for your situation. what you might consider though, is camping at the lava point campground that first night, right next to where the west rim trail starts. that way you'd be right there the next morning, and not have to worry as much about time making it down the trail, which is long. also, if you wanted to, you'd have the option of some short day hikes near there that afternoon, or evening. northgate peaks is about a four mile round trip from the road out to lava point, or you could hike a little ways out hop valley if you wanted to. i think that both of those would be worth doing. you could experience every thing in those areas without ever having to carry a tent that way too.

just a reminder:
the view at northgate peaks. you can see my brother left of center. north guardian angel is what you are actually looking at center, the northgate peaks are only slightly smaller domes that you can see the edges of at the border of the picture on either side. may be these views are what spoiled the west rim trail for me.
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hop valley near the end that you'd be at. i would not expect it to be as lush in june how ever.S0073007.JPG

also, the view from observation point. you can see angels landing below it right in the center, and rather than posting a picture that doesn't do it justice, i'm going to ask you to imagine the similarity in the canyon view that you get from there.
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You know you will need a shuttle for west rim correct? Whatever you plan, plan a light day after West Rim. Pretty rough on the knees and muscles with all the descending.
 
Seldom Seen Anderson said:
Whatever you plan, plan a light day after West Rim. Pretty rough on the knees and muscles with all the descending.
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I'm not so sure I agree with this. My knees have had it hard the last few years and I did The Subway the day after the West Rim and did fine. There was a little suffering in our group toward the end of the subway from some who don't hike as much though, so your own fitness level may dictate that. FWIW, The Subway is pretty strenuous.

Looking at Ben's shot of the view from Observation almost makes me like the view from Angel's even more. Not quite as high but you feel really IN it. Not the best photo, taken 10 years ago with a P&S, but you get the idea...
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Thanks @ben cowan, really helpful stuff. I'll research wire pass and buckskin gulch. Really helpful seeing just how similar the views are from observation point and Angels landing. I'm crossing observation point off my list. @Seldom Seen Anderson - yup knew about the shuttle to the west rim TH, sorta why I like Ben's idea about the lava point campground since the first shuttle there doesn't run until 8 I think? Then again, I'm really thinking of crossing the West Rim trail off altogether. Don't want to spend 2 out of my 5 days on it, but I'm also worried that 18 miles might be beyond what my wife would enjoy for one day. So Bens northgate peaks suggestion is intriguing. So two questions... Is the lava point campground a drive in campground? showers? And also, do you guys think it sounds reasonable to do the 4 mile round trip to northgate peak that Ben suggested and the regular Angels landing dayhike from the grotto in the same day? How long is the drive from lava point to the grotto? Thanks.
 
i believe that west rim is a long 18 miles, but i backpacked all of it and then some in one day. i don't know about the lava point campground, because we just backpacked past it, not even in sight of it. but i do believe that both of those hikes should be very doable in one day. i'd have to google the drive time.

we spent about three hours in wire pass and buckskin gulch on this trip. it starts from the same trail head as coyote buttes north.
 
Not 18 miles...I want to say 13-14 but if you are also doing angels landing....I see... I guess if you start at the campground that might add 1/2 mile ....it is definitely day hike able and is up there for best hikes in the park. Be prepared for sore legs and knees the next day. Descend a ton! Over 3000 feet. I would suggest this hike for sure to anyone, but it looks like you are packing a lot in so.....

Northgate Peaks is Ok. If you do hike that a suggestion is to summit the east northgate peak. http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/northgatescramble.cfm

I dont know if it is worth the drive up Kolob Terrace road just for Northgate peak though (I actually just saw somewhere the park is doing some major road construction on kolob terrace road so you might look into that as well) I noticed you dont have anything on the East Side of Zion planned. That might be an option rather than Northgate and Kolob Terrace if you decide its a no go on West Rim. Some that come to mind Canyon Overlook + Shelf Canyon (same parking area I think), Lower Pine Creek Waterfall, Two Pine Arch and Progeny Peak,

(this site has information on most of the east side http://www.zionnational-park.com/hiking-zion-national-park.htm )

To answer your question, compared to West Rim and Angels, Northgate and Angels would be a cinch.
Drive time is roughly 1 hour 15 min (plus another 25 minutes on the shuttle) .
 
it's 17.4 by the park's wilderness map. that's without angel's landing.
http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/upload/WildernessMap.pdf

it felt that long when i did it. didn't bother my knees when i did it, and that was with full backpack, but i've always been fortunate that way. from zion canyon you can also do other hikes like emerald pools or hidden canyon if you wanted to skip kolob terrace road and northgate peaks and stay in one area for the day. i liked northgate peaks, but i can understand questioning it as a destination of it's own. for me it was a short two mile excursion from a 50 mile backpack. i also really liked hidden canyon, but i've never been to emerald pools. the wife might not be as impressed with hidden canyon as i was also. it was an other excursion from the same backpack i did where we were right in the area any way.
 
Yeah, my GPS logged 17+ and so did Lisa's. I'd trust that number. Lots of places say it's less, but I think that was the days of measuring on paper or something. That's starting at the actual trailhead, not Lava Point proper and ending at The Grotto without any side trips.

The Potato Hollow sites aren't that far down the trail. Maybe 4-5 miles tops, so if you wanted to get a late start, that would be a good place to camp and there is a spring right there which is a luxury you only get at a handful of West Rim sites (if it's flowing). I can check my GPS track when I'm at my desk and let you know for sure.

Lava Point is kind of a meh campground. It's drive-in and it stinks like poop bad, or at least it has when I've dropped by there. I would not camp there if I were you. I would camp at one of a few good primitive sites on the Kolob Terrace Road. I'll hook you up with info on some if you need it.
 
You'll definitely have time for a short hike the day you arrive. Factoring in stopping somewhere to buy supplies, I'd estimate arriving at Zion around 4pm. That time of year, I think sunset's close to 9pm so you'd have several hours of light left for hiking. If you're concerned about being tired, do something short and easy like the Emerald Pools.

Alternatively, you could drive straight to Bryce the first day. You could possibly do the Navajo/Queen's Garden Loop in the cool of the evening, ending at Sunset Point to watch the sunset. Half a day at Bryce will be plenty of time to see the highlights of that park. Then the next morning backtrack to Zion for the rest of the trip.
 
Hi guys. Thanks to some really helpful advice I recieved from a few members, my plan for my first day and a half was going to be as follows...

I am landing in St. George at 12:50 pm. After landing I was going to head straight up Kolob Terrace Rd to try and fit the 4 mile hike to Northgate Peak in. I was also planning on staying at a campsite recommended to me off of Kolob Terrace Rd my first night, as well as a short spur hike near the campsite the next morning.

However, it appears there is major road construction that is being done to Kolob Terrace Road, so it appears my plan for the first day and a half are no longer feasible.
http://www.nps.gov/zion/parknews/kt-road-schedule.htm

So going back to my guide books and maps it looks like Snow Canyon would be a good option for a shorter hike, not far from the Airport in St. George. I'd also be able to camp at the campground there that first night... It looks like other possible short, day-of-arrival hikes that are closer to the airport would be The Watchman Trail,the Sand Bench Trail, or doing a small part of the Chinle Trail. Any suggestions here?

If I go that route my plans would look like something like this
Thu - Land at 12:50 at SGU then one of the hikes listed above
Fri - Angels Landing and maybe another small something
Sat/Sun - Narrows thru hike (assuming I get the permit on the 5th)
Mon - Bryce - Fairyland and Queens Garden
Tue - Flying home

I also have another question..

Landing in SGU at 12:50. Is it a realistic possibility to fit Angels Landing in that day after landing? If so, that would be awesome cause then it would free up an entire day for me to do something else, like maybe do a long out and back hike down at Buckskin Gulch which looks awesome from the looks of everything you guys have posted and I've read. If I could get Angels Landing in on my arrival day, I'm thinking this would be a good plan, albeit quite a bit of driving..

Thu - Land at SGU at 12:50 and Angels Landing
Fri and Sat - Narrows top down (pending permit)
Sun - Bryce - Fairyland and Queens Garden
Mon - Budkskin Gulch out and back
Tue - Fly home

Any suggestions/input are very much appreciated.

piper01 said:
Alternatively, you could drive straight to Bryce the first day. You could possibly do the Navajo/Queen's Garden Loop in the cool of the evening, ending at Sunset Point to watch the sunset. Half a day at Bryce will be plenty of time to see the highlights of that park. Then the next morning backtrack to Zion for the rest of the trip.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice and I'm sure you know better than I, but... I guess I just don't see how it would be a good idea to do the 3 hour drive to Bryce on the day that I'll be racing daylight to get some trail time in after a long travel day.
 
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Vegan.Hiker said:
Hi guys. Thanks to some really helpful advice I recieved from a few members, my plan for my first day and a half was as follows...

I am landing in St. George at 12:50 pm. After landing I was going to head straight up Kolob Terrace Rd to try and fit the 4 mile hike to Northgate Peak in. I was also planning on staying at a campsite recommended to me off of Kolob Terrace Rd my first night, as well as a short spur hike near the campsite the next morning.

However, it appears there is major road construction that is being done to Kolob Terrace Road, so it appears my plan for the first day and a half are no longer feasible.
http://www.nps.gov/zion/parknews/kt-road-schedule.htm

So going back to my guide books and maps it looks like Snow Canyon would be a good option for a shorter hike, not far from the Airport in St. George. I'd also be able to camp at the campground there that first night... It looks like other short, day-of-arrival hikes that are closer to the airport would be The Watchman Trail,the Sand Bench Trail, or doing a small part of the Chinle Trail. Any suggestions here?

If I go that route my plans would look like something like this
Thu - Land at 12:50 at SGU then one of the hikes listed above
Fri - Angels Landing and maybe another small something
Sat/Sun - Narrows thru hike (assuming I get the permit on the 5th)
Mon - Bryce - Fairyland and Queens Garden
Tue - Flying home

I also have another question..

Landing in SGU at 12:50. Is it a realistic possibility to fit Angels Landing in that day after landing? If so, that would be awesome cause then it would free up an entire day for me to do something else, like maybe do a long out and back hike down at Buckskin Gulch which looks awesome from the looks of everything you guys have posted and I've read. If I could get Angels Landing in on my arrival day, I'm thinking this would be a good plan, albeit quite a bit of driving..

Thu - Land at SGU at 12:50 and Angels Landing
Fri and Sat - Narrows top down (pending permit)
Sun - Bryce - Fairyland and Queens Garden
Mon - Budkskin Gulch out and back
Tue - Fly home

Any suggestions/input are very much appreciated.



I appreciate the advice and I'm sure you know better than I, but... I guess I just don't see how it would be a good idea to do the 3 hour drive to Bryce on the day that I'll be racing daylight to get some trail time in after a long travel day.
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Hey Vegan - nice itinerary. You certainly have full-up days. One thing - make sure as soon as you get your campground in the narrows call an outfitters for a shuttle. You don't want them to fill up, and I recommend getting the early shuttle. I think there are two times they leave, like 7am and maybe 9:30 am.

Also, there is so much to do in that area that you can't do it all. But if are worn out that last day and want to bail on more hiking, think about a drive down to Toroweap. No hiking required, just walking around the rim at your leisure. You need a high clearance vehicle, but not 4WD unless it is wet. If you do't go this time, you gotta go sometime when you're on the north rim. It is awesome and you likely will be all by yourselves.
 
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my opinion, angels landing is only half a day's commitment to hike, potentially even less. my only hesitation with planning on doing it the day you get there is that if any thing delayed you at all, it might not work out well. definitely doable, again, my opinion, but i'd only tentatively plan on that if you're ok with altering your schedule if it doesn't work out. those are my thoughts. also, google tells me it's only just over 2 hours to bryce from st george. i don't know that that makes it any easier figuring out how to get the most out of that first half day. the slight problem with angels landing is that you'll have to take the park shuttle to the trail head, rather than being able to just drive straight there and start hiking.
 
Thanks Tres, that's really helpful advice regarding the shuttle. I looked at Toroweap on the map and it looks like it's about a 5.5 drive one way. I'll keep it mind for a future trip as the pictures of the view I see online look amazing, but since I only have 4 full days to explore the area I would rather not spend 11 of those hours driving.

@ben cowan, yeah I'm worried i'm worried if run out of daylight trying to squeeze Angels Landing in on my arrival day. Maybe snow canyon or the watchman would be a better bet. I was going to do northgate peak after landing like you recommended but the road construction on Kolob Terrace Rd ruins that plan. I wonder if it is possible to do Angels landing the day that we finish the Narrows thru hike? @Tres Westbrook, do you recall what time you guys finished up the Narrows on your second day from campsite #5?
 
Vegan.Hiker said:
Thanks Tres, that's really helpful advice regarding the shuttle. I looked at Toroweap on the map and it looks like it's about a 5.5 drive one way. I'll keep it mind for a future trip as the pictures of the view I see online look amazing, but since I only have 4 full days to explore the area I would rather not spend 11 of those hours driving.

@ben cowan, yeah I'm worried i'm worried if run out of daylight trying to squeeze Angels Landing in on my arrival day. Maybe snow canyon or the watchman would be a better bet. I was going to do northgate peak after landing like you recommended but the road construction on Kolob Terrace Rd ruins that plan. I wonder if it is possible to do Angels landing the day that we finish the Narrows thru hike? @Tres Westbrook, do you recall what time you guys finished up the Narrows on your second day from campsite #5?
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I think we finished a little after 2:00. I figure we probably did around 1 mile per hour. We took a lot of breaks, though, and knew that our room at the lodge would not be ready until 3:00, so we were not in any rush to get out. By the time we got back to out car a Zion Adventure Co., it was around 3:00. You may be right about the driving distance to Toroweap. I was thinking it took us around 4 hours from Zion Lodge to Toroweap (with a 15-minute or so stop outside Kanab for roadwork), but I don't really pay that much attention to time when I'm on vacation.
 
ben cowan said:
google tells me it's only just over 2 hours to bryce from st george. i don't know that that makes it any easier figuring out how to get the most out of that first half day. the slight problem with angels landing is that you'll have to take the park shuttle to the trail head, rather than being able to just drive straight there and start hiking.
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So @ben cowan, how long does the process of taking the shuttle from the VC to the grotto usually take? Do you have to shuttle to the grotto from the VC everyday throughout the summer or just when the grotto lot is full? I was hoping there was a shot the grotto lot would be open late in the afternoon on a Thu and that we wouldn't have to shuttle. Perhaps I'm underestimating how busy Zion is in the summer. So you think it would be faster to getting on the trail I'm Bryce even though the drive is that much further?
 
Up canyon from canyon junction is always closed to vehicles in the summer. Some people will park at junction but it's really limited parking there. Hell, even the VC gets filled to the brim in the summer and you have to park way down the road in Springdale. I bet it takes 15 minutes or so from VC to Grotto, depending on how busy the stops are.
 
Hmm so it doesn't sound like it would take all that long to get to the grotto from SGU. I really wish Kolob Terrace Rd wasn't closed, had a nice little plan up until I found out the road was closed. I figure as long as I can make it to the TH at the grotto by 4 pm we should be okay since the book time is 5 hrs (not sure why it is so long for a 5 mile hike) and sunset is at 8:56pm that day. Getting to the grotto by 4pm when I'm landing at 12:50 should be feasible I would think.
 
Coming in the afternoon you might want to add 15 or so minutes to get to the VC assuming you might need to park in Springdale and then take the town shuttle in. But then again, spots should be emptying out at least a little that late in the day.

Pack a head lamp and even if you're a little behind on Angel's, you'll be okay walking down in the dark. Maybe get down through the chains section with a little light though. :) And yeah, 5 hours seems long. If you're in good shape and power through it, you can do it much faster.
 
I just checked my time stamps. Looks like it took me about 3 hours round trip and almost exactly 90 minutes from bottom to the top. I consider myself to be a medium speed hiker.
 
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