Permit systems - good or bad?

[Jammer]

Speaking of permits sucking - whats up with Capitol Reef? I find it....

This may not really help your specific problem as you still have to be there in person, but did you know you can get a CR permit via the inter-agency center in Escalante? (and maybe others.) The crew will just call over and help set it up and CR center will fax back the paperwork. And... the best part... if you are coming in from GSENM you can get one for a future date. So... hypothetically let's say one is hiking for a few days through the monument and then will be in Upper Muley Twist (or Halls Cr) after that -- you can get your permit in advance this way.

I've had bigger gripes with Canyonlands. They seem to like to close the permit section early (unannounced) and now they require all members of your party to be present to "hear" the rules! That's crazy. And... for thru-hikers you are supposed to pick up your permit at the closest visitor center the same day or day before the permit starts. For each of my hikes across the park this was a real problem. They do make exceptions (they even state this on their site) but when I show up it seems like I always have to work my way up the ladder of personnel before I can get somebody to issue me a permit a few days (or weeks) in advance for an area other than the one I'm located. Just curious Nick ... how did you handle the permit when entering via the jet boat?

- Jamal

 

[Nick]

Just curious Nick ... how did you handle the permit when entering via the jet boat?

They mailed me my actual permit and just gave me the speech over the phone and told me to make sure and share the info with the rest of the group! I can't believe it's so much work with the thru-hiking!

 

[intuitive cat]

I've had to drive up from the Notom Road, back to the Visitor center before. It is a bit of a pain.

I think intuitive cat has got people permits ahead of time before.

I haven't had to yet, but I can easily head over to the BLM office at the Anasazi State Park to get them if I am given enough of a heads up and then you can just stop by my place to pick it up. I should probably check with my friend who works there and make sure it would be ok for a third party to do so. I'll be sure to check into it.

 

[intuitive cat]

ok, so i was just at the Anasazi State Park to check and the policy is that the permit holder has to be present, so it unfortunately does not look like I would regularly be able to get permits for others this way.

 

[pixie1339]

I'm divided on the permit issue. On the one hand, I really hate having to jump through hoops in order to use our "public" lands. I don't care for the lack of flexibility it allows, and some of the fees are a bit ridiculous ($30 for a backpacking permit in Canyonlands regardless of group size). I do, however, appreciate that a permit system allows you to have a wilderness experience in a place like Coyote Buttes, for example, that would otherwise be completely overrun by crowds. I don't think it's unreasonable to require that a permit be picked up in person in order to make sure that permit holders understand what's expected of them in the backcountry. I'll bet there are a lot of people who simply throw away the rules and regulations that come with a permit by mail, or merely skim over them. I do think you should be able to pick permits up in advance, though. Still, I can't say I'm looking forward to seeing more of our wide open spaces fall under the permitting system.

 

[Laura]

The permit system is definitely a drag (I may get to experience how much of a drag firsthand when I apply for a Grand Canyon backpacking trip in 3 weeks) but with 5 million Griswolds visiting the canyon each year, it's a necessity. Can you imagine if even half the people who visited the Grand Canyon decided to overnight hike into it, trampling and pooping along the way? The environmental damage would be incredible. The national park system used to run under the premise that these are public lands and should be accessible to everyone, until they realized how much damage was being done to our parks (I remember when tour buses would run over the Tioga Pass into Yosemite, belching diesel fumes all the way). Even now with mandatory shuttles and permits, there are still too many people in too small of a space at one time. As long as people are crowding into an area, they will be doing damage to it, and I don't see any other way to simultaneously minimize damage AND allow access without issuing permits. I'd like it if the dollars collected when I apply for my permit would be used to hire more rangers to make sure leave no trace rules are being followed. I've picked up way too damn much trash on some of my hikes!

 

[steve]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the permit system. 90% of my trips are decided/planned one or two days before I leave. I remember hiking half dome as a kid. Yes, there were lots of people on the cables, but it's become such a hassle that I need to plan an extra day just to sit in line at the ranger office to hopefully get a permit.

Being a Libertarian, I have a tough time with most government regulations. I think if we could help people see themselves as stewards of the land rather than the government, maybe they could treat it better. The mountain bike community does well with this. They have been educating each other on proper trail care, use, and when not to use it. Sure, there are boneheads who ride when it's wet and leave ruts, but for the most part, people are learning.

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if they had some sort of class or training you could take and get a "backcountry license" to visit some places. Have people learn about safety, their impact on the environment, basic rules while in the backcountry and have them sign it, agreeing to abide by posted rules. Have the license expire every few years or so to keep the training fresh. Then require a "backcountry license" to recreate there. Anyone without a license is fined, and anyone with a license found violating the rules will have it revoked for the next year or two. Just an idea that I haven't thought through much.

 

[pixie1339]

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if they had some sort of class or training you could take and get a "backcountry license" to visit some places. Have people learn about safety, their impact on the environment, basic rules while in the backcountry and have them sign it, agreeing to abide by posted rules. Have the license expire every few years or so to keep the training fresh. Then require a "backcountry license" to recreate there. Anyone without a license is fined, and anyone with a license found violating the rules will have it revoked for the next year or two. Just an idea that I haven't thought through much.

That's an interesting idea, and theoretically it could work for some places, but I don't think it would be sufficient at high traffic tourist destinations because really anyone could get one. The Grand Canyon, as Laura cited, would be overrun. Imagine the damage that could be incurred at places like Coyote Buttes if a few hundred people a day started showing up. As much as permits blow, I don't think there's always a good way around them. These places were never meant to withstand vast numbers of tourists on a daily basis.

 

[Nick]

Zion's express permit system has some similarities to the 'backcountry license' idea. You watch a couple videos and sign some papers and then you don't have to go get lectured at the VC every time you go backpacking or canyoneering. I like it and I think that more of that should be incorporated into how things are run elsewhere. With that said, I also agree with pixie that it's tough to imagine it being effective in all situations. But man does it piss me off that in order to backpack in Capitol Reef, I have to pickup my permit AT the VC that is an hour+ away from many of the hikes and only in their narrow business hours, just so I can have them treat me like I've never hiked in the desert.

 

[Nick]

Another thing - when I applied for a Grand Canyon backpacking/canyoneering permit, they wanted to basically know my entire backcountry resume. What hikes in what parks and when. Again kind of moving in the direction of the backcountry license.

 

[pixie1339]

Zion's express permit system has some similarities to the 'backcountry license' idea. You watch a couple videos and sign some papers and then you don't have to go get lectured at the VC every time you go backpacking or canyoneering. I like it and I think that more of that should be incorporated into how things are run elsewhere. With that said, I also agree with pixie that it's tough to imagine it being effective in all situations. But man does it piss me off that in order to backpack in Capitol Reef, I have to pickup my permit AT the VC that is an hour+ away from many of the hikes and only in their narrow business hours, just so I can have them treat me like I've never hiked in the desert.

I definitely agree with you about the inconvenience of the permitting regulations at Capitol Reef, as well as a few other places. In Grand Gulch you can only pick up your permit between 8-12 at the visitor center the day of your trip. I get that they want you to hear their lecture, but why you can't pick up a permit a day or two in advance is beyond me. I would like to see more places implement the express permitting system like Zion does if you've backpacked there before.

 

[Nick]

So long as we're ranting about permits... can I just say what a fracking mess the Yellowstone permit system is? It's astonishing to me that the biggest, most-visited park in the National Park system still has the most archaic permitting process. Let me just dust off my fax machine and send this thing in.... Oh, and then they won't look at any of the permits received until April 1st at which point yours will be chosen randomly. Blah. I'm glad that I don't have to worry about plane tickets and stuff like a lot of people do, but it's still such a pain that I can easily hop online and book permits to Grand Teton, Zion and Canyonlands but the mack daddy of national parks is still doing it 80's style. </rant>

Has anyone heard any whispers of Yellowstone moving things online in the future?

 

[Bob]

Don't know, never had a problem for Yellowstone permits. They always called me if there was a conflict on a campsite or date, thought that was nice. Granted we usually do more remote, during the week. Only designated site I didn't get once, was one on Mirror Plateau that isn't on any map. Coulda had it but a outfitter wanted one of the two. Then a fire that year burned us out. Pretty much always get the remote nondesignated sites I want. Depending on where you go in Yellowstone you get grilled. One year going to Fairyland Basin we were questioned big time...really tried to discourage us. Permitting is always a problem. Grand Gulch is only in morning because of no money to staff all day.

 

[Howells Outdoors]

I only see the issue of inconvenience when it comes to permits. It sucks that I can't just pick up my gear and head out to some places, but I'm happy to be able to see those places because of there is a permit system in place.

I'd say education is key to helping other people reach a good land ethic, thus making permits not necessary because places aren't being destroyed/solitude is being lost; but then again the Goblin Topplers were Boy Scout leaders for cryin' out loud. Utah Boy Scout leaders, but Boy Scout leaders nonetheless. How many times was LNT and other good land ethics shoved toward them that they refused to listen to?

The permits, although inconvenient at times, are a necessary evil to protect these lands and the visitor experience.

Until a better solution is made, I'll take the inconvenience.

 

[Riggs]

The permits, although inconvenient at times, are a necessary evil to protect these lands and the visitor experience.

This sums it up for me too. When we come 1000 miles down to Utah for a trip on limited time, it's nice to know we have campsites in some places. But there are SO many cool places there and in the western US where you don't have to worry about it, like here in Montana. As I'm sure everybody knows, you just have to do a little exploring.

Here's one for you if you don't like cost of permits. We backpacked in Kauai last summer. The permit was $20/night, per PERSON, including any age kids. So I shelled out $400 to sleep on the ground for our family for 5 nights. Nuts. And then there's all these people living out there for months (no permits) anyway. I think I'd skip that permit if I did it again.

 

[scatman]

I'll have to concur with Bob about Yellowstone permits. I've only had an issue twice in all the years I've been backpacking there. Once, I actually got the campsite that I requested, but when I picked up my official permit, they had to change it to a different site due to a fire burning through the area. The second time I had a problem with getting what I requested, was on my trip to Fairyland. I wanted the site closest to Joseph's Coat Springs for two nights, but could only get it for one night, so I changed to a different site. I f I had been flexible by one day on the date I could have pulled it off. The folks at the main backcountry office in Mammoth have always been more than helpful whenever I have questions. As far as non-designated sites are concerned, I have gotten what I have requested in the past, though you do go through more scrutiny than a regular campsite. I have heard rumor that they are less lenient on granting you a non-designated site than they used to be. The last non-designated site I requested was in 2010, so it has been a few years since I tried.

 

[Bob]

lol ...... Fairyland ......... first they tried to tell us we needed climbing gear to get to it, wrong. Then they wouldn't give us the second night at the campsite at Jacobs, had to be down the creek about a mile or so. We took that, hung our packs at the Jacobs camp, all day to Fairyland and back (this was before the plateau burned) was thick, slow go. Got back after dark.......guess what, NO campers, so we never moved......was a smokescreen to discourge going to Fairyland. Only time the BC rangers been a PITA for me. Since that smooth.....

 

[Nick]

My beef with Yellowstone's permit system isn't whether or not you get what you want, it's the old school way of asking and their relatively short notice dates for awarding permits. To a lot of folks, myself included, faxing and snail mail are kind of a pain in the arse and with the less popular parks already up to speed with modern technology, it seems Yellowstone should be too.

 

[Bob]

lol .......... guess I'm old school, doesn't bother me. But I can do either. Besides, using snail mail helps pay part of my retirement from the USPS.

 

[scatman]

Nick - Patience young man. Look at it as a unique (nowadays) way of gaining access to a unique place. I'm sure sometime in the not too distant future, Yellowstone will implement a more modern system of handling their permit requests. I would think that even if one obtained a walk-up permit, you could get almost anything you wanted except maybe for the more popular routes like Bechler River or Heart Lake.