Opportunity to provide input on policies for Coyote Buttes North ("The Wave") and nearby areas

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Carcass

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
208
Doesn't happen in Coyote Buttes , but in South Coyote Buttes, photographers will reserve 3-4 days and if the weather isn't to their liking, they don't go, but won't turn in the permit.


I've been to South Coyote 3 times now, and each time all permits were taken, and I didn't see one soul out there. Not at Paw Hole or Cottonwood Trailhead. People were openly talking about it while waiting for the North Coyote lottery.
 

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Janice

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Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
144
Thanks. Is there camping spots in the canyon for a hammock?
Hmmm... Probably some spots, but we used tents and therefore were looking for different kinds of places to camp each night. There are definitely trees in the canyon, but I don't know if they're big enough or spaced well enough to rely on. Might be good to pose a question specifically about this and see what people say.
 

WasatchWill

Ready For More
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Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
1,409
Great idea - it seems that each person would have to be named on a permit, so people in a group wouldn't just take turns being the applicants. Will you be sharing this idea with the BLM? I've already sent a letter but can send a follow-up if necessary.
Yep. Can do.
 

chandlerwest

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
429
I rarely get into conversations about resource management. I just don't have answers of how you do not "love a place to death." Angels Landing and The Narrows in Zion. Logan Pass and Avalanche Lake in Glacier. The list can go on and on. Then, you try to manage areas in todays social media environment and it seems impossible to control areas from being swarmed like in the movie World War Z. (Fast moving zombies are just terrifying.) Anybody remember the movie Brigadoon? I only saw parts of this movie, probably 50 years ago, but the premise is hard coded in me. A utopia that is only visible and accessible for an extraordinarily limited time. North Coyote Buttes is beyond special. A Brigadoon. It has always been a hard ticket to get. It was one thing to see a photo spread in a magazine or a photo on a calendar but now you type "The Wave" and you are swamped with access to this area. I almost cry when I see a YouTube video that show route landmarks to The Wave that once were only available via maps given out only to permit holder.

At the risk of being grumbled at or discounted, I have been to North Coyote 3 times. This is attributed to living 85 miles from Kanab and I can be there for the lottery on Friday morning in the dead of winter. When the odds cannot get any better. When my only competition are the people in that room. Even in winter with the current limits the experience takes cooperation from the permit holders. "The Wave" is a very confined area so you find yourself waiting your turn or cropping people out. But as permit holders there is an understanding, an appreciation, and gratitude of being there. So cooperation is a simple given. 96 permits might not seem like it would be a mad house but..........it would be a mad house. There would be a line to take pictures. Nobody wants a picture of The Wave with 40 people milling about. Out houses would become an absolute necessity and expense. There is a spot in the Narrows that literally reeks because they have a hoard of people yet have not gone to the expense of helicoptering in a couple out houses.

I am essentially a front country guy so it is easier for me to witness the exponential increase in visitation to wonders. They are taking my parking space. I have adjusted accordingly because I have the freedom to seek out options unlike the hoard. I have been driven from the Virgin River valley into the back canyons in Zion. We know that if we want to park at Logan Pass in Glacier we need to be there by 9:00....if not earlier. I have seen too many places that have to come up with plans to provide reasonable, safe access. Good God....there was a sign last summer outside Apgar in Glacier National Park warning that the parking lot was full at Bowman Lake. "SAY WHAT". Bowman Lake is the middle of nowhere. At the end of an hour or two drive on a dirt road. And this sign is telling you there is no room for you once you get there. "I can't hang out on the beach for lunch? I can't hike to Numa Ridge or Quartz Lake?" Talk about a slap in your face acknowledgement, by the park service, of the need to micro manage the wilderness. It is one thing to try to manage accessible areas of National Parks because this commitment is a century old. But trying to provide additional access to such a confined, random wonder such as North Coyote Butte is a precedence that I fear. It has a "beginning of the end" feel to it.

I have no answers. I'm just sitting here trying to fill up the morning. I have seen access issues explode over the past 50 years. I am overwhelmed by the issues that both of my son's will be confronting in their careers in the wilderness management system.
 

OldBill

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
63
We were fortunate to get a permit at the BLM office May 19, 2019. Application #19. We had originally planned on doing Wire Pass/Buckskin and Hackberry but it had been raining for a day so those were out. We just happened to be staying at a nearby motel and walked over. We were the last number called. Great! But, how to get to the trailhead? Even with 4WD the rental didn't have the clearance or the tires. Wound up hiring a guide (after a few refused to even try) and had a great time as the rains let up. Even the guide said the road was in bad shape.

Had a great time, *but* what others have said about crowds/cropping-out is already true. One group of 6 (max size) spent about 30 min in the first wave, running up and down the rock (when specifically told not to during the orientation) taking their various videos. Others were more respectful, but by the time we got our turn for our experience, we had less than 10 min before someone else entered the Wave. Luckily, the guide saved some time by showing the best photo spots and we moved on to the 2nd Wave and a nice loop back to the TH.

I know we got incredibly lucky, but I would hate to see this turn into another Angel's Landing. Didn't even bother with that. Good luck to all those seeking to get the permits. Hope we don't make the "strangle list". Know the photos aren't great, but FWIW...
 

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Carcass

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Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
208
They need a BLM ranger at the Wave to stop all the stupidity by people, especially if they allow more people. Have the ticketbook handy to give out citations and fines.
 

Ben

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Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
1,742
I rarely get into conversations about resource management. I just don't have answers of how you do not "love a place to death." Angels Landing and The Narrows in Zion. Logan Pass and Avalanche Lake in Glacier. The list can go on and on. Then, you try to manage areas in todays social media environment and it seems impossible to control areas from being swarmed like in the movie World War Z. (Fast moving zombies are just terrifying.) Anybody remember the movie Brigadoon? I only saw parts of this movie, probably 50 years ago, but the premise is hard coded in me. A utopia that is only visible and accessible for an extraordinarily limited time. North Coyote Buttes is beyond special. A Brigadoon. It has always been a hard ticket to get. It was one thing to see a photo spread in a magazine or a photo on a calendar but now you type "The Wave" and you are swamped with access to this area. I almost cry when I see a YouTube video that show route landmarks to The Wave that once were only available via maps given out only to permit holder.

At the risk of being grumbled at or discounted, I have been to North Coyote 3 times. This is attributed to living 85 miles from Kanab and I can be there for the lottery on Friday morning in the dead of winter. When the odds cannot get any better. When my only competition are the people in that room. Even in winter with the current limits the experience takes cooperation from the permit holders. "The Wave" is a very confined area so you find yourself waiting your turn or cropping people out. But as permit holders there is an understanding, an appreciation, and gratitude of being there. So cooperation is a simple given. 96 permits might not seem like it would be a mad house but..........it would be a mad house. There would be a line to take pictures. Nobody wants a picture of The Wave with 40 people milling about. Out houses would become an absolute necessity and expense. There is a spot in the Narrows that literally reeks because they have a hoard of people yet have not gone to the expense of helicoptering in a couple out houses.

I am essentially a front country guy so it is easier for me to witness the exponential increase in visitation to wonders. They are taking my parking space. I have adjusted accordingly because I have the freedom to seek out options unlike the hoard. I have been driven from the Virgin River valley into the back canyons in Zion. We know that if we want to park at Logan Pass in Glacier we need to be there by 9:00....if not earlier. I have seen too many places that have to come up with plans to provide reasonable, safe access. Good God....there was a sign last summer outside Apgar in Glacier National Park warning that the parking lot was full at Bowman Lake. "SAY WHAT". Bowman Lake is the middle of nowhere. At the end of an hour or two drive on a dirt road. And this sign is telling you there is no room for you once you get there. "I can't hang out on the beach for lunch? I can't hike to Numa Ridge or Quartz Lake?" Talk about a slap in your face acknowledgement, by the park service, of the need to micro manage the wilderness. It is one thing to try to manage accessible areas of National Parks because this commitment is a century old. But trying to provide additional access to such a confined, random wonder such as North Coyote Butte is a precedence that I fear. It has a "beginning of the end" feel to it.

I have no answers. I'm just sitting here trying to fill up the morning. I have seen access issues explode over the past 50 years. I am overwhelmed by the issues that both of my son's will be confronting in their careers in the wilderness management system.
Thanks for this.
 

Jackson

I like to go outside.
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Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
1,622
there was a sign last summer outside Apgar in Glacier National Park warning that the parking lot was full at Bowman Lake. "SAY WHAT". Bowman Lake is the middle of nowhere. At the end of an hour or two drive on a dirt road. And this sign is telling you there is no room for you once you get there. "I can't hang out on the beach for lunch? I can't hike to Numa Ridge or Quartz Lake?" Talk about a slap in your face acknowledgement, by the park service, of the need to micro manage the wilderness.
Didn't see your message here until now. I ran into this problem last year. We went in the late afternoon and lucked out with a spot, but the ranger at the Polebridge entrance had warned us that our long drive down that bumpy road was likely to be futile. The lot was nearly full when we showed up, which was shocking because we had driven through a downpour on that bad, muddy road the entire way, and the weather had been like that all day. IIRC, they actually restrict access to the lake between something like ... 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. after a certain number of cars have driven up to Bowman. I was very surprised by all of that when we got to Polebridge. It was so far out of the way compared to the rest of the park. Crazy. I want to get out and kayak on Bowman Lake late this summer or early fall. Looks like I'll just try to get there at 6 a.m. or so so I can get a spot to park.
 

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