backpacking & the state of the Art

backwoodsBob

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Dec 29, 2014
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Greetings All!
I have to tell you, Ive found a LOT to like at this site, and extend a hearty thanks to all who post their adventures photos and opinions. You all make for great reading!

I have to admit to thinking Im a bit of a time traveler of sorts, in regards to the state of the art. In my younger active years as a backpacker, I collected the requisite equipment, and made good use of it to be sure. The Boy Scouts of the 70s formed the foundation of my experience, and I was lucky then to have friends who enjoyed getting out on their own beyond the confines of organized Scouting. We backpacked the Sawtooths 80miles one way, got into Rock climbing, and explored areas near and not so near... we used map and compass... GPS was a military secret back then, if it existed at all....

We made it a point, for example, to do a winter camp on top of Farmington Peak together up into our 30s, snowshoeing and sleeping in snow caves, just to prove to ourselves each year we could do it . Then for myself, the responsibilities of Adult life took their toll, and I opted for the time saving, mechanized version of this and other outdoor sports.

Gone were the concerns weight or bulk, a 4x4 truck, or Jeep, Campers, 5th wheel trailers, and later ATVs would solve those problems, and frankly, the luxury these tools afforded was wonderful! My backpack became a dust collector, somewhere around the late 1980s.... lovingly stored away behind "camping gear" no man would attempt to carry 1/2 a mile into the forest by hand. Until I discovered Rainbow gatherings in 2000.

At its core, Rainbow gatherings are a collection of HARDCORE campers and woodsmen....surrounded for the weekend by the would be woodland warrior, with his sleeping bag and pillow hanging by a length of twine from his pack.... Hippies to be sure, But I testify to you that there are people in that tribe who's pioneering skill level, is absolutely astounding. The whole thing struck me as another flavor of a Boy Scout National Jamboree for adults.... there was real woodcraft going on here that I could appreciate. I resolved to become a part of that action!

The upshot of witnessing these gatherings, is that the vast majority of folks who attend them are often to be found on the lower side of the monetary income bracket... (although I would propose these people are far, FAR from poor spiritually) a geewhiz tecnoflash spaceage 2oz mess kit, or a store bought trekking pole for example, is as out of place there as a man in a 3 piece suit. I don't consider myself ignorant in the way of the wood, My old back pack, an 80s generation (state of the art then) Jansport D3 I reasoned, loaded High and tight, and showing the scares of use, fit right in with all those surplus ALICE packs I was seeing! Yet, in my first visits to these gatherings, I couldn't help feeling a little like the rookie as I passed these hardcore woodsmen on the trail...

Now, reading you good folks, This has got me thinking about the state of the art in backpacking...for better or worse? in my day, a Eureka Timberline tent was a Cadillac... it would stand up to any weather short of a hurricane, stay dry, vent at night, & at 6 lbs it was a dream to carry. (I would STILL opt for one of those, rather than the myriad of Turtle tents are all the rage..) We were taught external frame packs were superior to any Bag and harness you could tie on your torso.... we cooked on campfires. You folks carry your own stoves! And there was no such thing as a reliable double A flashlight!

The wisest among us in my day volunteered to Carry the food. (your load got lighter every meal) MREs hadn't made it to the civilian market to any large degree yet, and a single mountain house freezedried offering was the equivalent cost of a tank full of GAS! As I contemplate the coming summer, and my desire to revisit the haunts of my youth, Im torn between adhering to the old ways, or "cheating" on weight with all this new space age stuff I read you fun folks touting.... Treking poles? we use to pick a stick up off the ground and carve them at night by the fire... if you couldn't carve 3 balls inside a cage in the handel, it was NO WALKING STICK! lol...

I recall in my day my average pack weight was usually in the 45 to 59 lb range... how does that stack up to your full load today say for a week and 50 miles?
What modern gadget do you find INDESPENCABLE?
What Old school tool will you carry despite its weight?
What implement IYHO, has made the leap from my generation to yours with little change

When you thru hike an area, and your 30miles in, and you encounter the party who's just left their trailhead, their ruck shiny and new, you tend to wear your dust with a measure of pride... it speaks to the distance and travails you've overcome. You note the new guy with his sleeping bag dangling by a thread from the bottom of his pack frame and chuckle, knowing experience will soon afford a valuable lesson... I understand that solitude IS the object to a degree in this sport, BUT....
I trust, that Backpacking hasn't lost the woods true mandate, with all the high tech stuff that's become available , to be one of those who would still offer that man a quick cinch up...
Namaste~ BackwoodsBob
 
I recall in my day my average pack weight was usually in the 45 to 59 lb range... how does that stack up to your full load today say for a week and 50 miles?
Pretty easy to get it under 40 lbs - I wouldn't carry anything heavier than that unless I'm on a crew working the trail.

What modern gadget do you find INDESPENCABLE?
Bic lighter, LED headlamp

What Old school tool will you carry despite its weight?

spoon

What implement IYHO, has made the leap from my generation to yours with little change
Can't think of a thing
 
I still have my Jansport external frame pack, a beautiful thing. I hung it up for good when a friend of mine who was a experienced backpacker told me about a friend of his named Wayne Gregory, who had started his own company making internal frame packs. WTF? Internal frame? It looked funny, was kind of awkward but was super comfortable and bomber, beautiful craftsmanship. Gregory had just opened a store in San Diego where they were manufactured (and i lived), and I did not buy another pack for 20 years, it was that good.
I only buy new equipment when what i have is worn out or obviously in serious need of upgrading. The core of my equipment, pack, tent, sleeping bag have not really changed in 10 years, some items going back 20 years: Bibler and Garuda tents, West. Mountaineering 40 degree down bag, feathered friends 0 degree down bag, Arcteryx water proof pack (oops just upgraded!). I have only replaced items that have been dramatically improved over time IMO, stoves, filters, sleeping pads and packs etc. And i don't continue to use items out of nostalgia for the past, or a badge of honor.
I love my old equipment, but fully appreciate modern advancements.
I think the state of the art, is just that, a state that is constantly changing and evolving. The fun part is choosing what works for you and upgrading if needed.
Your question about what piece of equipment has made the leap from your generation to now with little change, the answer IMO is everything and nothing. The functions and some basic designs are still the same, but they still perform the same functions as when we started backpacking in the early 70's, just lighter, and a lot more expensive.
 
Ahhh, the old days. My first pack frame (note, NOT backpack) was a wood, twine, and canvas affair with a fold down shelf. You just tied whatever you had to carry on it, including those sacked, light weight canned goods, the uber light canvas pup tent, and the one burner Coleman gas stove.

Yes, everything has changed for the better since but at a much slower pace than what occurred in the 60's and early 70's. What I consider my first decent backpack was a Camp Trails frame sporting a REI bag. That was followed in about 1970 with one of the first Jansport D3's that I bought from the local Jansport rep before they were actually on the market. I was never too keen on the A-frame waist belt supports on those and when they were changed to the aluminum sheet metal supports years later, I converted my old pack over to them. That worked reasonably well and I used that pack for 3 and a half decades. A bit more than frayed, but I still have it. It was finally replaced with an Osprey, which was a definite step upward in just about every way. But it did require a somewhat severe re-education effort on how to pack the pack.

Sleeping bags? My first late 50's vintage was stuffed with something undefined, but what ever it was, and I don't want to know, the R value was only slightly better than a wet cotton sheet. My first decent bag was the REI McKinley (1969 or 1970) which was optimistically rated at -40. It was good down to zero and that was sufficient. More than twice the weight of my current North Face version, but a good bag. Another area with significant improvement of late.

We didn't know what sleeping pads were when I started backpacking. About the only things around were the beach versions of vinyl air mattress that were both heavy and poor at actually holding air. We went without until the foam pads hit the market-also late 60's early 70's time frame. In the interval since, I went through several foam pad upgrades and then just about every version on Thermarest up to the present Neoair. Another area there has been a rather large improvement over the years.

The canvas pup tent had given way to the REI "two man" by the end of the 60's, a rather drastic improvement in both function and weight. That was actually a decent tent with a fly that came close to the ground and could take a lot of wind. It's biggest short coming was no real vestibule, but I made a small ripstop tarp with loops to attach to the tent which cured that problem. I used that tent until I got tired of re-coating the floor and fly. A fair number of Sierra Design and REI tents later, I still consider that tent a good one.

Food: after graduating from Dinty Moore beef stew, it was Richmoore and some other early dried food vendors stuff, most sourced from Eddie Bauer and Herter's (yes, they were both once real outfitter's), mac and cheese, powered potatoes, powdered eggs, oat meal etc, etc. Some of that early stuff was gawd awful and Oregon Freeze Dried Foods (OFDF) was something I was willing to pay for when they finally hit the market. Then, in the early 70's, it was Christmas when my Army officer brother lined me up with several cases of surplus lrps (long range patrol) rations. For the unfamiliar, those were aluminum foil lined canvas pouches that contained a vacuum packed freeze dried entree (by none other than OFDF), a candy bar of some type-some inedible-, hot cocoa mix, dried coffee, matches, TP, plastic spoon and probably some other stuff I can't remember now. The entrees were for the most part, the same stuff marketed to us civies as Mountain House, but were about the same as the present double servings. As long as the vacuum pack remained sealed, the shelf life was close to forever. That supplied all my backpacking food for better than a decade. There has been a notable increase in the menu selections since then by a number of vendors, but quality wise, it's still about the same.

Stoves and cookware: This is one place I don't see a huge improvement over what was available at the close of the 60's. The Svea 123 was a compact, light weight, very functional stove and paired with the Sigg Tourister cook kit which provided a stable base and wind screen, it worked really well except when winter camping. You definitely needed the kit to pressurize the tank for that use. I also used an Optimus 8R for a time. Functional, but a bit heavy. I eventually went to one of the original MSR GK's. The base and pot support sucked on those, but you could burn just about anything in it and it was a fast heater. Presently, it's the Dragon Fly and an Evernew/Snowpeak cook kit. All better, but not that much better.

Bear spray: what did you say????? A recent development for sure but back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, I don't recall enough of those critter's being around that we ever gave them a second thought. A few black bears that could be pests, but certainly not something that considered you lunch. My great uncle had given me a handgun at the tender young age of about 12 and I usually packed it. Not that it would have done anything but really pi$$ off the bear (a 30 Luger). Sometime in the 70's, I bought a 44 mag which I still feel is the minimum requirement if so inclined to go that route. We presently usually carry both spray and the backup plan B. The probabilities of an adverse griz encounter today are order of magnitudes higher around these parts but one is still far more likely to die in a car wreck getting to the trail head.

Ok, enough senile mumbling.
 
Wow fellows! What fun replies! Im glad to see im not the only would be Dinosaur on the site! Ahhh the ancient SPOON~! ToooShay!
 
I say carry what makes you happy.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a bit lazy, so I like carrying stuff that's pretty light. My motives for going to the woods are the search for relaxation and solitude and the ability to see new and beautiful places. I'm not out there to impress anyone (either by having the lightest gear or by being the most "manliest" and carrying the heaviest stuff). I know i have a lot to learn, and I'm eager to learn it, but my point of view is that my motives for being in the outdoors are my own, and I'm not going to judge anyone else for their gear choices or anything else.
 
Any piece of gear (no matter how "new age" or "old school" it is) does not make anyone a "better" or "worse" backpacker or person. I hardly judge people by the gear they use. I think it's great that people like using their old gear, but they shouldn't feel threatened by or better than people who use newer gear (and vice versa). I don't judge people by how old their car is vs new, and camping is no different for me.

Cavemen would argue that backpacks from the 80s are "new age" and that we're softies for using things like compasses, maps, forks, and matches. I think that if cavemen had matches, compasses, forks, and lightweight tents, they'd be fools not to use them.

Im torn between adhering to the old ways, or "cheating" on weight with all this new space age stuff I read you fun folks touting...

I'm not sure why the date of manufacture of a piece of gear relegates it to "cheating." Is it easier to hike with lighter gear? My back and legs say yes. Is it easier to start a fire with matches? Yes. Is it cheating? Last I checked, backpacking didn't have any rules regarding how you can start a fire... If you want to use matches, by all means go for it. If you don't, more power to ya.

I recall in my day my average pack weight was usually in the 45 to 59 lb range... how does that stack up to your full load today say for a week and 50 miles?

For a 50-miler, my pack weight is about 25-30 lbs, including food. That wouldn't be possible without "new age" materials sciences, and it wouldn't be possible without "old school" skills of learning how to use the few tools I bring. The one thing that no piece of gear can replace is the mindset of an ultralight hiker. That's the best piece of gear out there: learning to do more with less.

When you thru hike an area, and your 30miles in, and you encounter the party who's just left their trailhead, their ruck shiny and new, you tend to wear your dust with a measure of pride...

Not me. When I encounter the party 30 miles in, I congratulate them for getting out and enjoying nature, no matter how shiny their gear is. When my gear wears out, I buy new gear. And usually it's shiny when it's new.


I understand that solitude IS the object to a degree in this sport, BUT....
I trust, that Backpacking hasn't lost the woods true mandate, with all the high tech stuff that's become available , to be one of those who would still offer that man a quick cinch up...

I don't understand how "high tech stuff" would affect backpacking's 'true mandate'. I understand people's resistance to change, especially with new things. They feel like their way of life is being challenged and some people find that threatening. I work with technology on a daily basis and I am blown away by how many people resist the urge to try new things. I think of when pencils were first invented and how many people must have clung to their quill and slate chalk. Am I a better backpacker than someone who has a lighter, heavier, newer, older, or more traditional pack than me? I sure hope not. If that's the case, I'm doing it wrong.
 
I say carry what makes you happy.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a bit lazy, so I like carrying stuff that's pretty light. My motives for going to the woods are the search for relaxation and solitude and the ability to see new and beautiful places. I'm not out there to impress anyone (either by having the lightest gear or by being the most "manliest" and carrying the heaviest stuff). I know i have a lot to learn, and I'm eager to learn it, but my point of view is that my motives for being in the outdoors are my own, and I'm not going to judge anyone else for their gear choices or anything else.

While weight is and always has been a factor in what I put on my back, in my younger days it was far less important and I didn't have any money anyway. However, when you reach your elderly years, that weight becomes exponentially more important and at this point in life, I'm willing to spend a few extra bucks to go as light as I feel is practical for whatever the destination. My tent is by far the most weight in the pack but I'm reluctant to take an ultra light weight tent in some of the places I like to go. Too many adverse experiences I guess. Back in the eighty's we did a 70 mile trip in the Beartooth's and my starting weight for that was close to 70 lbs. I flat can't do that anymore. Heavy tent or not, the pack stays around 35 lbs.

I suppose everyone will have their own motivation on the why, but for myself, I'm never more happy than sitting beside some high country lake with just my wife and dogs. No motors, no music, no camp fire.



And then some damn plane buzzes you.
 
What modern gadget do you find INDISPENSABLE?

- a map and compass
- water filter

What Old school tool will you carry despite its weight?

- a razorblade


What implement IYHO, has made the leap from my generation to yours with little change

- attitude and mindset. I don't think there's a great divide like you see it. I know young guys using old gear and old guys using new gear. Use what you've got and get out as much as possible. When it comes time to replace gear, do some research and pick the one that works best for you. Using old gear for nostalgia's sake is just as foolish as using new gear for the "new factor" sake. I dropped 20 lbs from my pack without adding a single piece of gear, though it did require a new mindset.

A few examples:

Switching from old school metal canteens to "new age" arrowhead water bottles shaved 1/2 to 1 lb.

Leaving my "old school" buck knife and taking a razorblade instead shaved another 1/2 lb.


I am the most guilty person on the planet of utilizing new, high-tech, light gear when it's useful. I have insanely high-tech and expensive shelters. Have they detracted from the backpacking experience? Not at all. Am I a happier backpacker than my neighbor who uses low-tech? Nope, but I'm happier than the version of me who had a 50 lb pack for a 50 miler.
 
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My pack is regularly around 50+ pounds, but that also includes quite a bit of camera equipment, tripod, etc.... I am comfortable carrying that much weight, and it doesn't ruin the experience for me, so I don't worry to much about trying to shave it off. Granted I am a pretty large guy, so 50 pounds for me isn't as much as with someone smaller.

Up until last month I was using the same tent I had been using since I was a teenager. I bought a new one for Christmas and it still weighs 4 1/2 pounds, a weight which most on hear would gawk at, but it's lighter than what I did have, and it cost me half of what the 2 1/2 pound tent was going to cost me (cost is a big issue for me), and is a lot more comfortable and durable. To each their own really. The only time I really start caring about weight is when I am with others who's packs are half my weight and I worry about keeping up with them.
 
I don't understand how "high tech stuff" would affect backpacking's 'true mandate'. .
Perhaps Im misunderstood... I would celebrate anyone trudging into the woods~ Regardless of their social stature. The best way I might explain what I was trying to come across with would be this little metaphor,
I made my living Trucking for 30 years, & In those 30 years The camaraderie amongst Truckers took a real nose dive. Guys use to support each other,& look out for each other, Breakfast at the truckstop use to be a social event with different participants every morning. Then the industry got big, and people for what ever reason lost the desire to associate... I blame it partly on tech stuff like modern scheduling demands, volume, & satellite radio for example. I MISS that sense of Friendship with strangers encountered on the road... it was VERY similar to what I knew backpacking.... But there were fewer of us then. on the road AND (Im guessing) the backwoods...

So I was trying to ask in a way, has backpacking in my absence become like walking the streets of New York City? Where folks (generally) just ignore ya and would prefer you left them alone, or Is it still a social circle out there in the trees? when I was younger, & we encountered hikers a ways out, we viewed it then as an occasion to seek them out & visit like minded folks. maybe combine foods for a interparty feast... "mandate" was probably the wrong choice of word.

What brought that particular question to mind was a post I read, where the writer seemed less than excited to see others on the trail or popular spot....and several folks concurred... It struck me as Different from what I knew. We would hike around the lake to make ourselves known. & would welcome visitors around our fires. I gather that's not the thing to do anymore? would actions like that be viewed as "strange or suspect" today?


What percentage of Backwoods hikers would you all suppose are carrying firearms?
 
Most people I run into on the trail are very friendly. I think you will get a variety of answers to that question. You have social and anti-social people up there just like anywhere else. I usually try to talk to people on the trail, but I try to give people their privacy at camp, ie don't set up camp right next to them. I personally don't mind other people around, in fact it gives me some piece of mind having some else camped at the same lake I am at, but others seem to like complete solitude. There does come a point where there are too many people for me, for example when hiking the Narrows in Zion, it's a zoo in there and it ruins the experience for me. Everyone's tolerance is different.
 
So I was trying to ask in a way, has backpacking in my absence become like walking the streets of New York City? Where folks (generally) just ignore ya and would prefer you left them alone, or Is it still a social circle out there in the trees? when I was younger, & we encountered hikers a ways out, we viewed it then as an occasion to seek them out & visit like minded folks. maybe combine foods for a interparty feast... "mandate" was probably the wrong choice of word.

What brought that particular question to mind was a post I read, where the writer seemed less than excited to see others on the trail or popular spot....and several folks concurred... It struck me as Different from what I knew. We would hike around the lake to make ourselves known. & would welcome visitors around our fires. I gather that's not the thing to do anymore? would actions like that be viewed as "strange or suspect" today?

I can't speak for others on the forum, but I'm pretty anti-social in real life and do not seek out other people on the trail. I am usually looking for solitude when I am in the wilderness.
 
I can't speak for others on the forum, but I'm pretty anti-social in real life and do not seek out other people on the trail. I am usually looking for solitude when I am in the wilderness.
How could you POSSSIBLY be Antisocial, and be from Grand Junction at the same time? Junctionites are some of the friendliest people in Colorado! YOU live in a BEAUTIFUL spot Intrepid ! every climate is within a hours drive for you!

Sure, I believe Congeniality minus diplomacy equals brutality.
 
How could you POSSSIBLY be Antisocial, and be from Grand Junction at the same time? Junctionites are some of the friendliest people in Colorado! YOU live in a BEAUTIFUL spot Intrepid ! every climate is within a hours drive for you!

I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and had my fill of people there.
 
I'm pretty anti-social in real life and do not seek out other people on the trail.

I can attest to this. IntrepidXJ is more of an introvert than an extrovert. That being said, he is extremely friendly and easy to talk to. Antisocial is not the same as rude or cold in his case.
 
I am a textbook case introvert, you would be hard pressed to find someone more introverted than me. However when I am around people of like mind, which I usually assume fellow backpackers will be, I tend to open up and be a bit more social. Not to the point that I walk around the lake and introduce myself to everyone, but am willing to strike up a conversation with someone I meet on the trail.
 
typically, I avoid national parks because to me it feels like disneyland. I like people, and I love nature, I just don't like large quantities of people when I'm in nature. I don't get out camping to replicate a 4th of july tailgaiting party. I enjoy small groups, and depending on the circumstances and the groups, I'll talk to just about everyone I meet on the trail. Everyone's different, but I generally enjoy talking to strangers, whether camping or not.
 
I'm not one, but I think it's awesome to have a chatty extrovert type in the group. Crazy how much useful information my old friend Nate got out of people just by stopping and asking them anything and everything. We'd make fun of him about some of the crap he'd ask people, but it often led to tips on good campsites, things to look for, wildlife ahead, etc. I'm polite and say hello but I don't usually strike up a conversation. It's amazing to me how many people won't even nod or say hello back.
 
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