Burr Trail new pavement

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Nick

Spiral out.
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Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
12,669
A shared resource should only be used in the way that you think it should be, and those who disagree are morally bankrupt racists. Interesting perspective.

What's the difference if a fossil-fuel guzzling 4x4 dragging a trailer craps up the environment via a dirt road or a paved road? Lowers the bar of entry? Makes it accessible to those who can't afford expensive 'camping' toys?

You guys pick strange hills to die on.
I don't really get how you took that from what @fossana said. If you don't see that there is a definite anti-outsider mentality from the good ol' boys in Utah, you haven't been paying attention. It's real, and it's pervasive. I don't see anyone here asserting the hyperbolic statements you made.
 

Carcass

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
208
The more these areas are promoted on social media, print magazines, news articles and so on the more people with flock to the areas to see for themselves. That's just life here in the states. Utah has much beauty and advertises it.

The more people, the more dust will be kicked up from vehicles. The more dust in the air, the less clearer the air is. Also, more trash, more crowded, etc...

As for "safety reasons" if it is paved, people will speed. And wreck.

It sucks, but money talks loudly. State legislatures love more money coming in. Local businesses love it too.

I don't know what the fine line is to please both sides. I think Tourism will do more damage than mining will. More restrictions like North Coyote Buttes isn't the answer either. No matter what, people will not like it.
 

Janice

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
144
The more these areas are promoted on social media, print magazines, news articles and so on the more people with flock to the areas to see for themselves. That's just life here in the states. Utah has much beauty and advertises it.

The more people, the more dust will be kicked up from vehicles. The more dust in the air, the less clearer the air is. Also, more trash, more crowded, etc...

As for "safety reasons" if it is paved, people will speed. And wreck.

It sucks, but money talks loudly. State legislatures love more money coming in. Local businesses love it too.

I don't know what the fine line is to please both sides. I think Tourism will do more damage than mining will. More restrictions like North Coyote Buttes isn't the answer either. No matter what, people will not like it.
Challenging issues. One benefit to tourism, though, is that it can help people develop greater appreciation for our natural lands and hopefully leads them to support policies that preserve these places. I don't think mining can accomplish that.
 

LarryBoy

Hiker Trash
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Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
1,788
I propose that we forcibly resettle everyone who currently lives in Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. They can move to either Kansas or Nevada.

Then we build a wall (around the border of those states, not along the Mexican border) and make access by invitation only. You can only invite ten people per year. And once you leave, you need a fresh invite.

All in favor? :)
 

ramblinman

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
76
The unfortunate reality is that these places will only become more and more popular, regardless of how accessible they are--which is not at all surprising to anyone who has seen these beautiful places themselves. Increased visitation requires creative solutions, and unfortunately in some cases further regulations and restrictions. The core principle of democracy is that the best solutions are those that are born out of a long process of open public discourse, not decisions made by one or a few people in secret (whether at the federal, state, or county level).
 

JulieKT

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
114
Chip sealing just south of the park boundary. Apparently it goes for about 7 miles down, though we didn't go all the way. This view is heading north back into the park. You can see dirt on the other side of the cattle guard. Coupla rigs are still parked out there in a large pullout. (Including a truck that had a Garfield County logo on it with an image of Delicate Arch as part of it. That was a head scratcher.)

Beautiful day. Flowers are popping down all along Notom. Scorpionweed, sego lilies, claret cup, indian paintbrush, more. I'll add a few to the wildflower thread.

2019-05-03 12.48.36.jpg
 

Rockskipper

No ETA
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Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
2,335
Challenging issues. One benefit to tourism, though, is that it can help people develop greater appreciation for our natural lands and hopefully leads them to support policies that preserve these places. I don't think mining can accomplish that.
I used to believe that, but anymore, I'm not sure it's true. But then, I lived in Moab during the halcyon days. Anymore, the places I loved are being trampled and ATVed to death. Not much appreciation for nature. Even the MTBers are wrecking things (case in point, more and more off-trail tracks through the crypto in the Sand Flats Recreation Area). These are all tourists.
 

Janice

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
144
I used to believe that, but anymore, I'm not sure it's true. But then, I lived in Moab during the halcyon days. Anymore, the places I loved are being trampled and ATVed to death. Not much appreciation for nature. Even the MTBers are wrecking things (case in point, more and more off-trail tracks through the crypto in the Sand Flats Recreation Area). These are all tourists.
Sad to know this. Thanks for sharing your information.
 

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Bob

Trailmaster
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Mar 3, 2013
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2,239
I've found even hikers and backpacker numbers have increased dramatically... There is more abuse, damage, and trashed places....it's not limited to mechanical intrusions
 

LarryBoy

Hiker Trash
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Messages
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According to the most recent Outdoor Industry Association report (link below), backpacking and hiking have increased in popularity in the past decade - both in raw numbers and as a function of population. The total number of participants has increased by about 60%. That doesn't necessarily mean that overall usage has increased by 60% though.

And I'm part of that increase. Sorry not sorry. :)

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://outdoorindustry.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-Outdoor-Recreation-Participation-Report_FINAL.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMjrmI9IDiAhUIFjQIHdMZBckQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3SaWDYxnZvfRsrL9mvEAmK
 

Janice

Member
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Dec 5, 2017
Messages
144
According to the most recent Outdoor Industry Association report (link below), backpacking and hiking have increased in popularity in the past decade - both in raw numbers and as a function of population. The total number of participants has increased by about 60%. That doesn't necessarily mean that overall usage has increased by 60% though.

And I'm part of that increase. Sorry not sorry. :)

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://outdoorindustry.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017-Outdoor-Recreation-Participation-Report_FINAL.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMjrmI9IDiAhUIFjQIHdMZBckQFjAIegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3SaWDYxnZvfRsrL9mvEAmK
I'm part of that increase, too. It's become an incredibly meaningful part of the 2nd half-century of my life. But I promise I don't abuse and trash the wilderness - we are so careful!
 

OldBill

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Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
63
I can sympathize with both sides here. We are headed out Wed for 2 weeks Zion, Bryce and GSE. Only have a rental SUV which is certainly not HCV. Forecast is showers for days so by the time we get to GSE the simple 3 day backpack in Coyote Gulch may be inaccessible. Likewise with Peek-a-Boo, Wire Pass/Buckskin and Lower Hackberry. I totally understand avoiding slot canyons when rain is present but from what I've been told it doesn't take much to make Hole-in-the-Rock, Cottonwood, etc. inaccessible. So we might be stuck just driving Rt 12/89 around Escalante and Kanab. Not our idea of having fun outdoors. The crowds at Zion, Bryce and the North Rim are understandable. Access and NPs go together, but it's nice to make the extra effort to just get away.

Ha! First trip to the "desert" and I bring rain. It's getting really old up here in the NE.
 

Janice

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Dec 5, 2017
Messages
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I can sympathize with both sides here. We are headed out Wed for 2 weeks Zion, Bryce and GSE. Only have a rental SUV which is certainly not HCV. Forecast is showers for days so by the time we get to GSE the simple 3 day backpack in Coyote Gulch may be inaccessible. Likewise with Peek-a-Boo, Wire Pass/Buckskin and Lower Hackberry. I totally understand avoiding slot canyons when rain is present but from what I've been told it doesn't take much to make Hole-in-the-Rock, Cottonwood, etc. inaccessible. So we might be stuck just driving Rt 12/89 around Escalante and Kanab. Not our idea of having fun outdoors. The crowds at Zion, Bryce and the North Rim are understandable. Access and NPs go together, but it's nice to make the extra effort to just get away.

Ha! First trip to the "desert" and I bring rain. It's getting really old up here in the NE.
Have you hiked Boulder Mail Trail? I don't think it would be safe in the rain, but if the rain is over you shouldn't have trouble getting to the trailhead even if other roads are not passable. (Thank goodness for paved Hwy 12 - hmmm....) We did an amazing 3-day backpack trip there last April (I realize it was quite a different year water-wise - you'd have to check with the rangers). We went west on BMT, down Death Hollow, back up BMT, then met up with the Escalante River (where I think the water levels aren't too high right now), then continued east along the river until the Hwy 12 bridge. It was terrific!
 

OldBill

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Aug 18, 2015
Messages
63
Thanks Janice! It's my first visit to S. Utah so it's all new. That's a great idea. We had looked at it earlier (along with Little Death Hollow). We'd have to do it as an out-and-back. If that steep slickrock section is dry and the river isn't high it certainly looks like an option. Definitely no problems getting to the TH! Have to take care with the poison ivy (my GF is highly allergic), but that seems to be everywhere in the area.
 

Bob

Trailmaster
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Mar 3, 2013
Messages
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Could consider Grand gulch.. easier car access
 

Janice

Member
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Dec 5, 2017
Messages
144
Thanks Janice! It's my first visit to S. Utah so it's all new. That's a great idea. We had looked at it earlier (along with Little Death Hollow). We'd have to do it as an out-and-back. If that steep slickrock section is dry and the river isn't high it certainly looks like an option. Definitely no problems getting to the TH! Have to take care with the poison ivy (my GF is highly allergic), but that seems to be everywhere in the area.
Southern Utah is so spectacular - you'll have a great trip no matter what! :)
 

OldBill

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
63
Thanks Bob. I will check into Grand Gulch. From another thread it looks like Coyote Gulch is impossible even under current conditions.

Ha! If the road to the Big Sandy Trailhead ever got paved, I can only imagine what would happen to the Cirque of the Towers. I'm leading a hike to the Winds in Sept, 2020 and have to include it and Titcomb. Good intro for first-timers but as this thread shows, it's nice to have less accessible options to maintain the sense of wilderness many of us seek.
 

Bob

Trailmaster
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Mar 3, 2013
Messages
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If you must go to the cirque...Go in Sweetwater th to the Cirque.... Less traveled.
 
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