Insect Repellent

[Vegan.Hiker]

I'm not sure if you guys out west have a black fly season like we do in parts over here in early Spring. I'm heading out for a 5 day trip in an area known for it's black flys from mid-May thru late June so I've been doing some research since I'm scared as all hell of deet.

I found a few research articles where Lemon Eucalyptus tested to be just as effective as deet for keeping black flys and mosquitoes at bay, although it needs to be reapplied more often. I picked some up. Does anyone have any testimonies using Lemon Eucalyptus?

I also read that Picardin isn't as toxic as deet although it's still a synthetic chemical, and has tested to be as effective.

I don't mind spraying some deet on my hat if I really need to, but I won't spray it directly on my skin as I fear it's absorption into my blood stream. I'm really hoping the Lemon Eucalyptus works as well as the Internet is telling me it does.

I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else uses.

 

[Yvonne]

I use Wick Vaporub. It keeps the deer flies and black flies longer away. A mixture of peppermint oil, lemon oil and lavender oil is also helpful. I haven't used Eucalyptus oil yet, but had good experiences with the Wick Vaporub.


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[Vegan.Hiker]

Interesting, never heard of anyone using vaporub. I'll look into it.

 

[DudefromOhio]

Thermacell! Refills aren't cheap but it's worth is weight in gold.

 

[Duke]

Vegan Hiker....you struck a nerve or two with me so this is going to sound preachy. Apology in advance:

Natural things are chemicals and synthetics are not toxic or more toxic just because they are synthetic. Take poison ivy and snake venom for example. Bug bites are a health risk and if you want to prevent them you should use the stuff that works. Why use something that only...kind of work just because it says "all natural" on the bottle or doesn't have a scary name. DEET is very, very safe if used correctly (don't eat it, put in in your eyes, etc) I have a lengthy and less preachy post on here about repellent that give some better scientific details and, of course, I think its a worthwhile read (obviously) but the bottom line is....why try for a substitute?

 

[JoshuaDyal]

I've used lemon eucalyptus on occasion (when someone else brought it.) It seemed to work OK, and smells better than DEET. I didn't get bit in a heavily mosquito-infested west Michigan woodland. Never seen its effectiveness with regards to black flies; I've never lived anywhere where they are common.

That said, I prefer to hike in permethrin treated clothes with a solid high concentration DEET application on my hands, face or other exposed areas during skeeter season. Maybe it's off topic, and you don't want to go there, but why in the world would anyone be scared of using DEET? It's been widely used for generations, with no appreciable health risks ever having been determined.

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/deet-safe-use

 

[slc_dan]

I understand risk/reward factor is something we all must determine. To say NO appreciable health risks have ever been determined is false. There have been notable, albeit small, when used incorrectly, but there is some research to suggest it's not 100% safe.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=deet&btnG=&as_sdt=1,45&as_sdtp=

With that said, I always have 3-4 bottles of the stuff with varying degrees of concentration (30%,50%, 100% etc). Anymore, I just hate the smell TBH. I move fast enough during the day, and wear long sleeves at camp. I've used it once in the past 3 years. If the bugs are terrible, I've found a small move in camp-away from water- is most effective.

 

[WasatchWill]

With all the bear safety rules and how you need to keep scented items out of reach and protected, I used to wonder if the scented stuff, particularly the lemon, eucalyptus stuff and other products with such a strong scent would be strong enough to attract bears. Then as I think about it, with all the people out there that use all sorts of repellant, including the heavily scented stuff, I've yet to read up on an incident where a bear was attracted to someone with repellant on.

With regards to DEET and other suspicious chemicals, preservatives, sweeteners, etc, I try to limit my exposure too because I fear what they can do to my health, but at the same time, I have to trust my body's system to clean itself and flush out toxins and what not. It's the repeated persistent exposure and overuse of certain toxins and stuff that can sometimes be associated with bad health conditions developing (eg smoking). Obviously, there are other things out there that are straight up bad for you and damaging with just one exposure, but I don't think DEET is one of those. @Duke and @JoshuaDyal make some good points. There is a lot of naturally occurring stuff out there too that is equally or more toxic or harmful than a lot of synthetic compounds. Poison Arrow Frog comes to mind as well as other venomous animals, poison berries, rhubarb leaves, methane and radon and so on. I think the biggest threat DEET poses is actually what it can do to your gear, especially anything with elastic, such as shock cord.

I've got some Sawyer family stuff that I now use. It comes as a cream which makes it easier to apply to just the spots you want. But, I don't know how it does with black flies.

 

[andyjaggy]

I've never heard anything about deet being bad for you. We are exposed to thousands of chemicals every day, both naturally occurring and synthetic, I would wager a guess that spraying deet on yourself a few times a month is probably the least of your worries. Like others have said just because it's synthetic doesn't mean it's evil, and vice versa.

That said I did use the eucalyptus once, it seemed to help a bit, but nowhere near as effective as deet. I seem to remember having to reapply it frequently. Honestly the best solution if you are afraid of spraying chemicals on yourself is to wear pants, long sleeves, and get a net hat. then you only have to worry about your hands.

 

[andyjaggy]

I've used lemon eucalyptus on occasion (when someone else brought it.) It seemed to work OK, and smells better than DEET. I didn't get bit in a heavily mosquito-infested west Michigan woodland. Never seen its effectiveness with regards to black flies; I've never lived anywhere where they are common.

That said, I prefer to hike in permethrin treated clothes with a solid high concentration DEET application on my hands, face or other exposed areas during skeeter season. Maybe it's off topic, and you don't want to go there, but why in the world would anyone be scared of using DEET? It's been widely used for generations, with no appreciable health risks ever having been determined.

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/deet-safe-use

But those were scientists that did the study, all scientists have a secret agenda and are under the control of the men in the black helicopters......... I work with a couple of hard core conspiracy theorists, it's starting to rub off on me.

 

[Mike K]

When in the backcountry I use 100% DEET. If space and weight aren't an issue I use some other % of DEET. I don't know if it's unhealthy or not but I try to keep it to a minimum when possible. When stationary around camp in buggy areas I wear a head net and layers that bugs can't bite me through so that I only need apply the DEET to the backs of my hands and maybe on my socks/ankles. If they're bugging me while hiking I apply liberally. A little 100% DEET goes a LONG ways. I usually spray into my hands and then rub it on (rather than spraying it directly on me).

I haven't had much luck with all the other types of repellents. They all seem gimmicky and ineffective. I do think some people are more prone to being bit than others. And some have worse reactions to the bug bites as well. I must be one that has really thin skin and tasty blood because they sure do love to get after me! I've had some trips where the mosquitoes were so bad that it really tainted the trip. We've tried to adjust our backcountry outings to times of the year where the bugs are less prolific. Unfortunately, this is usually during the prettiest and greenest time of year. =(

Good luck with those biting flies. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[andyjaggy]

My wife attracts the bugs much more than I. She always gets bit, and she tends to be mildly allergic as well since her mosquito bites usually swell up in size 3-4X the size of mine.

 

[Nick]

Deet will 'melt' some plastics and fabrics. I use it sometimes when it's needed, but that alone is enough reason for me to avoid when I can. True or not, that also makes me assume that maybe using it on my skin isn't a fantastic idea, but it is also to keep my gear safe. I'll usually opt to carry the extra weight of 30% or 40% over the 100%, but if the bugs are really bad, I'll take it however I can get it.

I tried Picardin once. It was a joke. In a pinch I tried rubbing myself down in Vodka, also not effective at all.

 

[JoshuaDyal]

I understand risk/reward factor is something we all must determine. To say NO appreciable health risks have ever been determined is false. There have been notable, albeit small, when used incorrectly, but there is some research to suggest it's not 100% safe.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=deet&btnG=&as_sdt=1,45&as_sdtp=

What I said was completely accurate. You're just not understanding what the word "appreciable" means. A tiny fraction of 1% is not an appreciable risk.

That said; I minimize my use of DEET for the same reason; I just don't like the smell of the stuff. I hadn't really considered the value of setting up camp a bit farther from standing water (and where there's a breeze, perhaps) but that's not a bad way to go. Especially when paired with long-sleeved and long-legged clothing that's been permethrin treated.

 

[JoshuaDyal]

I think the biggest threat DEET poses is actually what it can do to your gear, especially anything with elastic, such as shock cord.

Oh, crap, yes! I had some 98% DEET spill in my pack last year. Nearly ate a hole all the way through my waist-pack, the plastic bag the DEET bottle was in, the nylon case my water-treatment SteriPEN was in, and partway melted my Trails Illustrated semi-plastic paper maps (luckily, it mostly just made them sticky, not unusable.) Gah, what a mess.

 

[JoshuaDyal]

But those were scientists that did the study, all scientists have a secret agenda and are under the control of the men in the black helicopters......... I work with a couple of hard core conspiracy theorists, it's starting to rub off on me.

Just because it's a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it isn't correct!

In any case, I gave some serious thought to replacing the DEET this year with lemon eucalyptus, mostly because I minimize my exposed skin in the wild anyway, and because of the mess it made with my gear last year. And because it smells better. But I've only used it once before, and again--I only know what it does to mosquitos, not black flies or ticks.

 

[slc_dan]

What I said was completely accurate. You're just not understanding what the word "appreciable" means. A tiny fraction of 1% is not an appreciable risk.

That said; I minimize my use of DEET for the same reason; I just don't like the smell of the stuff. I hadn't really considered the value of setting up camp a bit farther from standing water (and where there's a breeze, perhaps) but that's not a bad way to go. Especially when paired with long-sleeved and long-legged clothing that's been permethrin treated.

I understand what appreciable means, sir. Significance is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it's significant enough.

 

[John Goering]

I understand what appreciable means, sir. Significance is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it's significant enough.

If one has any scientific/math/statistics background, "significant" does indeed have a very specific meaning: that point where you can actually be reasonably certain the data show some affect. I have never seen a study that shows DEET has any significant adverse effects and I have been using it for 50 something years-almost all of it 100%. It simply remains the most effective repellent out there. And it obviously doesn't dissolve all plastics (it comes in a plastic bottle these days) but it does make any of the MSR water filters gooey along with some water bottles and numerous other things including camera gear. And I try not to get it on clothing and wash it off before climbing into the sleeping bag.

There isn't any way to avoid all things detrimental to our health. You can hide under a rock to avoid UV/melanoma and die of radon induced lung cancer. For myself, DEET is the ONLY way I can enjoy the Beartooths and some other really buggy areas. That said, in the end, it just comes down to one's personal preference-for whatever reason.

 

[Duke]

Re: correct use of DEET, see my other post: http://backcountrypost.com/threads/the-repellent-to-use.842/
100% is not the best. It evaporates too quickly. But, it does need to be greater than 10% to achieve the EPA registered efficacy. The lotion base with 25% is the perfect mix (once again in the other post).

As a toxicologist I spent a good deal of time looking at DEET toxicity info (though it was years ago) and when we go out we are going to cover ourselves in it and sleep just fine knowing that it just isn't a dangerous thing. That's not just based on "rat" data by the way, that is based on decades and decades of use and epidemiological data. It does, as mentioned, ruin some plastics (including gortex) and that is a great reason why someone may not want it because that it does do. If you grab your polycarbonate sunglasses while some is on your finger you will leave a permanent fingerprint on the lens. If those are $50 sunclouds that would be a bad day. And, if you use citronella, get a bunch of bites.....to me....that is a bad day. In the rocky mountains it likely won't be a huge health problem, luckily, but I sure don't want them.

 

[Opi]

Sportsmans 40% has work wonders for me. I may just try the 25% and see how that works.