Insect Repellent

There are some guys with some SERIOUS opinions about DEET on this forum!

I hate the smell of DEET. Also DEET evaporates and must be reapplied regularly.

But, you need to do something about the bugs.
For me, my main concern is not mosquito, its the tick.

Almost all of my time in the backcountry is spent photographing wildlife.
I find myself in the constant presence of ticks.

DEET based bug repellants are notoriously ineffective on ticks.
Thats why I use PERMETHRIN based products by SAWYER.

You DO NOT apply permethrin to your body, you treat your gear, clothes, tents, sleeping bags, boots, ect.
It has no chemical smell, like DEET based products, which is paramount when trying to get close to wildlife for photo ops.
It works like a miracle for ticks, but also works for mosquitoes and other bugs.

Its a really great product.
For those of you who don't like DEET, PERMETHRIN is not going to make you feel any better.
Its a Chemical that is made from chrysanthemum plants. But they do put health warnings on the products like they do on DEET.
But, you don't apply to the skin. You treat gear.
Once treated, the protection lasts 6 weeks. Unlike DEET that must be reapplied regularly.

I got two ticks this winter, because I did not treat my gear. I felt there was no need, since it was winter.
But, the complete lack of winter, and warm temps made me vulnerable.
After that trip, I treated my gear, and I have not had one tick on me, my son, or any of our gear this spring.
Folks who go with us have mad many.
One guy had six ticks on his shirt, one morning before the sun came up.
Its been a bad tick season where I live. But I have been tick and mosquito free since I started treating my gear.

The stuff works well.
Its great to be in the woods without smelling like a harsh chemical factory.
The peace of mind that I don't have to worry about bugs is fantastic.

If this sounds like something you might be interested in, check it out.

Link.
https://sawyer.com/products/permeth...KPrGvPYg8nJIzUUHirUJA6IxVcYrAPP9pIaAgug8P8HAQ

I will warn you, it seems EXPENSIVE. But when you consider how long it lasts, compared to DEET and PICARIDIN, its not that expensive. Plus it works much better.

I find no need to treat my skin with other products. The treated clothes are enough.

I did a lot of research on PERMETHRIN before I tried it.
I was so dissatisfied with DEET that I looked all over for something that would work.
Ever since I tried the SAWYER PERMETHRIN, I have NO BUG PROBLEMS.

For people on this forum, imagine this……
You treat your gear before a pack trip. No hauling bug protection, you just treat once, at home, and your tent and person is bug free for six weeks.
Sound too good to be true? TRY IT!

Also, some have said that it can discolor clothes. But I have never had any issue with any of the clothes I have treated.
I have treated many different fabrics, from tents, to backpacks, clothes, hats, boots, ect. Nothing has ever altered the color.

I don't care if you try it or not.
I don't have stock in the company.
I am sold on it. If you are finding that you don't like the chemical stink, or that your DEET is ineffective, or you just don't like putting that chemical stuff on your skin. Maybe treating your gear with PERMETHRIN is for you as well.
 
ben cowan said:
speaking of natural vs synthetics, you should see what coca cola can do to a nail.
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When a product acts in a certain way it's the result of one or more of the components/chemicals present in this product.

Whether these chemicals are synthesised in a reactor or in a plant or animal is completely irrelevant as long as their structures are identical.

So when Deet dissolves plastic it's because that is one of its characteristics, that cola is reacting with iron is because it contains an acid component, "synthetic" or "natural" has nothing to do with it.
 
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Permethrin clothing treatment and Repellent use are not mutually exclusive. I do use it and it is great for ticks and crawly things. i would pose that what you said is a bit off though. DEET works for all arthopods, but it is a repellent. the permethrin is a poison that kills them and is not a repellent. It does work well though. Ticks move until they hit a foliage change (trail) and wait. Then they launch at anything with white and anything with CO2. They grab and then climb up. This is why pants should be tucked into boots. This puts them climbing up your pants with permethrin. Otherwise they hit the top of your sock and then they are on skin. In the military, when in the field, we use a combination of both clothing treatment and DEET. You are correct that DEET evaporates too quickly and that is a problem....which is why the ULTRATHON lotion (see other post) is the way to go. Lasts for hours. Sprays are what market well but they just don't last long at all. But...they are always front of the shelf because no one wants to buy lotion. People like sprays. And.....people like something that says..... all natural or "no chemicals" even though everything is a chemical :)

Permethrin clothing treatment only will not keep mosquitoes at bay. They will find your bare skin. But it is definitely the way to go for ticks.
 
slc_dan said:
I understand what appreciable means, sir. Significance is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it's significant enough.
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Did you actually read the data I posted? You're an order of magnitude more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than a adverse health effect from using DEET. And I'm not exaggerating for effect; you're actually at least an order of magnitude more likely to see Bigfoot (or at least believe and/or claim to have done so) than to have an adverse health affect from using DEET.

While it's technically true to say that risk aversion and significance varies from individual to individual, to say that in this case twists the meaning of that phrase beyond all recognition. Fourteen people out of tens of millions have reported a condition since 1957 when DEET was first put on shelves that might possibly, although epidemiologists would disagree that there is anything close to a clear link, have some connection with their DEET use. All but three made a complete recovery. Over roughly the same time period (since 1958) there have been over 5,000 Bigfoot sightings in the United States and Canada.

Look, I don't mean to be argumentative or insulting, but that's not talking about significant risk aversion, with numbers like that. There are plenty of good reasons why one may not want to use DEET. I'm still a bit ticked off at the gear that got semi-melted last year in the Uintas when my bottle leaked. And I really dislike the smell of it. But because you're worried about your health isn't one of them, when the health risks in about the same range as your chances of being hit by a meteorite while hiking.
 
Duke said:
Permethrin clothing treatment only will not keep mosquitoes at bay. They will find your bare skin. But it is definitely the way to go for ticks.
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It does a pretty good job if you wear long pants, long-sleeved shirts, and treat some kind of bandana or gaiter and your hat too. There are still some exposed areas of skin, but not much.

I always use Permethrin treatment and bring along some DEET for my face and my hands and the back of my neck. But I want to minimize my DEET use. The stuff stinks!
 
Thanks everyone for your opinions. Just to clarify, natural vs. synthetic has nothing to do with my decision to not use deet. I wasn't looking to start a debate, but I can assure you, I don't make important health or ethical decisions without doing my due diligence. Not sure why people sometimes assume that if you don't come to the same conclusion as them you must be misinformed. It's pretty easy to post articles stating either side of the issue... Here's one for example. http://www.quantumhealth.com/news/dangers_of_DEET.html. Not trying to get involved in a debate, just showing how easy it is to find backup on Google. In the end, we all have to do our own research and interpret it based on our own values and viewpoints. In other words hike our own hike. Like I said, I wasn't trying to start a debate. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with Lemon Eucalypus.
 
Well said, @Vegan.Hiker.

A side note to all, while debate is great (even though perhaps not intended in this case), let's all remember to keep it very friendly here on BCP. Some discussions (not just this one) around here have been getting a bit disrespectful to other members at times. The mod team is generally pretty hands-off, but in an effort to not stifle broader participation, a renewed focus will be made to make sure posts stay true to our ethos of keeping the discussion respectful at all times. Thanks for your preemptive help in keeping BCP awesome.
 
JoshuaDyal said:
Look, I don't mean to be argumentative or insulting
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That is how you are coming across, and I just don't care enough about the subject to try and argue on the internet. The dumb thing is we basically agreed with each other, but arguing about semantics. That's just not worth another thought for me. I'm only typing this right now so I don't have to check the thread again.
 
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Vegan.Hiker said:
I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with Lemon Eucalypus.
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Yes, and on a professional basis I might add. If you are worried about a chemical soaking into your body you can use mineral oil (barrier) instead of any repellent. The mosquitoes do hate it! Not nearly as much as I hate citronella and some other subpar repellents, but they do hate it :)

Obviously I do think this is a serious topic. It does have health impacts. Usually not near as serious for those of us in the Rocky Mountains, but in other areas of the world they are very, very serious.

Re: looking up Tox info. Just for fun you can see the AWESOME life we Toxicologist have in our spare time :)..check out psoralen, a potent DNA mutagen in celery, Solanine in potatoes, and aflatoxin B1, the most potent cancer causing chemcial known, from a fungus found on peanuts and in peanut butter. All of them taste great :) but none will keep mosquitoes at bay :(
 
I've been using premethian for years. I use so much that I buy it in concentrate and reduce it down. You can get concentrated amounts at tractor supply in the horse section and reduce it down with water until it's a reduction you are comfortable with.
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I used to use the REPEL spray 100% deet, and now I use the 3M Ultrathon lotion. It is fantastic. The time release really works. It keeps SWARMS at bay. They even make a version with a sponge applicator to keep it off your hands, though it sounds better in theory.

DEET sure does taste funny...
 
Deet melted off all the graphics on the back of a friend's Canon DSLR, that much I know :eek:

I wonder if the Repel Lemon Eucalyptus works with those pesky juniper gnats you find in late spring and early summer on the Colorado Plateau. I only get a few bites but girlfriend gets eaten alive by them.
 
Wyatt Carson said:
I wonder if the Repel Lemon Eucalyptus works with those pesky juniper gnats you find in late spring and early summer on the Colorado Plateau. I only get a few bites but girlfriend gets eaten alive by them.
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I used the Coleman Lemon Eucalyptus on a 5 day trip in the ADK's notoriously known for it's black fly season in May/June and it worked extremely well. They weren't out in full force because it was colder and windier than normal for most of the time, but on the warmer days, they left me alone as soon as I sprayed it on me.
 
Thanks! that's good enough for me to give it a try.

Edited to add, we were in the ADKs several years ago and that is a beautiful place in their colorful autumn...lots of water too so I can see how the insects could be voracious...
 
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Re: Picaridin, it actually is effective. I say that not from personal experience (which would be anecdotal) as I have never used it but from the EPA registry data. The thing one wants is one that is EPA registered. Why they are the body that registers them I don't know but they are. They register only those that have shown efficacy (they have to work) and have shown to be safe. Picaridin (which is KBR 3023) does have that registration. That certainly does not mean it is the best though. Eucalyptus oil does also have the registration. BTW, it is p-methane 3,8-diol. However, even though E oil met the minimum efficacy criterion for the EPA registration, its efficacy was much lower that DEET and Picaridin. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating it. Clearly I am a DEET advocate, but also...not all DEET products work. I don't think any of the DEET ones other than Ultrathon work well and for a long enough time so the products all vary and not just based on the active ingredient. (and that last thought is 100% anecdotal evidence based :) )

DEET has the registration and in fact the EPA redid the safety evaluation again in 1998 and reissued as registered and listed "no safety or health concern". Others that have posted on here are correct that DEET can cause toxic effects. That is the entire principle of toxicology.....everything is toxic! It just depends on how much and what you do with it. Sugar, salt, even water are toxic. The EPA registry and the many many studies of human exposure are what they are based on. But that doesn't mean it is the repellent for you :) If you aren't comfortable putting it on....you won't use it and then it certainly won't work :)

I believe one other chemical now has the EPA registry but can't remember what it is. It might be the stuff they have in Ben's?
 
I try to have my clothing do most of the work and spray Doterras terrashield on my clothing and Dogs. I always carry a small bottle of DEET, just in case. Even so, if its really bad ill use my bug net hat, and gloves. I think DEET is fine, I used the hell out of it in Alaska and im ok. Just rather go natural when possible.
 
How is the terrashield? My wife has been getting into the oils.... I'm not sure I have any faith in them, but she wants me to at least try it.
 
If I had to use DEET or something similar, I would spray it onto something I didn't care about and tie that around my belt or to my pack. I usually just make sure there are large clouds of extra stinky pot smoke around me to keep them away.

The idea of spraying my family down with any chemical just doesn't sit right with me and doesn't seem to fit into the natural way of things. I did a quick google on how the Native Americans got by in the days before humans decided that we knew better then nature. They used things like Golden Seal and Western Yarrow to keep the bugs off. They also had one other trick that might be a better option then DEET, rancid alligator fat.

Seems the bugs don't like rancid fat either.
 
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