responsibility to fellow canyoneers?

[gloo]

I have a question I'd like to toss out to you guys. This past weekend I was out hitting Larry among other canyons in the roost. We started Larry at noon saturday and figured we'd be pushing sunset as we finished the canyon. We ran into a group of boy scouts who were clearly unprepared for the canyon as a group. They had a larger man with them to put it lightly, started the canyon at 11, and had a total group of eleven, and from what we could tell one rope. We played through as we passed them an hour at most after starting Larry. Soon after we were talking and came to the conclusion - the chances they're going to make it out before dark were slim to none. We figured they'd end up staying the night in the canyon and they did not look prepared for that.

We had hours of discussions on what we can and should do. We had to think about ourselves first and foremost, while all 3 of us were prepared to stay overnight, we would much rather be back at camp of course and we knew we had to get to the exit before dark otherwise we didn't think we could find the exit crack ourselves. We also had to leave at 4am to be back home Sunday for various reason. We ended up flying through the canyon and were at the exit crack hours before sunset. Which left us at a crossroads - what do we do - if anything - to help this other group out? Since it was our first time hitting the canyon we missed the social trail that had formed to the exit crack, we backtracked found it, and figured the other group would too, especially in the dark. although it pained us to make them, we made a few cairns (if you hit larry soon knock them down) at the river bed to guide the group to the trail. I know, a total canyon disservice but at the time we thought it might help these guys get out ok. We discussed staying at the top of the exit, leaving a flashing headlamp, hiking back to our car and grabbing our bivy gear and stoves and coming back down (this was before we realized how nasty the hike up to landside was..). we all agreed that even though we made cairns they probably weren't getting out tonight still. probably a waist and a mega fail on our end. best intentions of course. We ended up doing something a little simpler: we called the sheriff/SAR and gave them coordinates for their vehicles. told them them last time we saw the group they were fine but at 5am (when we called sar) they weren't out of the canyon, etc. We were given the impression that we made the right call in calling them. We left a note on the suburban informing them of our plan. We got word that the group did make it out safe the day around midmorning. Hans flat had a few rangers check up on their cars and they were gone.

So...after that long winded post - do you think we do the right things in this situation? What responsibilities do we have to other canyoneers?

discuss

 

[lostlandscapes]

I think you did exactly the right thing. Building a cairn (heck, building a rock wall even) to potentially save someone's life is about as harmless as it gets in the grand scheme of things--especially since it sounds like there maybe should be one there anyway.

Don't mean this as a criticism in any form, but the only thing I may have done differently is call SAR that night, to give them a heads up. But I'm not certain. They most likely wouldn't have deployed until morning anyhow, considering the darkness and inhospitable terrain. But since you knew you were waking up so early, I can see why you waited.

I'm sure the pull to sit at the exit and wait for them was difficult to ignore. But then you'd potentially be putting three more lives in a difficult situation. I think you guys used sound judgment by getting back to the trailhead and taking care of yourselves first.

But seriously--a group of 11 noobs starting Larry Canyon at mid-day during winter hours? Unbelievable.

 

[Dan]

I'd be hesitant to recommend ever calling SAR preemptively in the Roost, simply because of all the politics right now with SAR crews in counties in south eastern utah. They don't have much in the way of resources, and they are being overwhelmed by canyoneering situations.

In this case, I think it's a big fat "it depends." Having done Larry before, I would've asked a few questions to compare my experience against what they were experiencing, to gauge the likelihood of them getting into trouble. But that's entirely subjective, and depends on their experience and yours as well.

We haven't heard about any SARs, so perhaps we can safely assume that they didn't end up having any serious issues after all?

 

[gloo]

Yeah, that's one thing we thought about. What if SAR responded at dawn and then gave them a bill for rescue when they really didn't need much. We did make it clear that we didn't know if they needed a rescue but figured the info we could provide might be helpful if a rescue was needed. I've also heard that wayne county will enlist hans flat rangers a lot to check out possible technical rescues, and sometimes help lead them. We even discussed the fact that they may have stashed gear in the canyon to stay overnight due to their late start. We dumped that quickly since we knew they were an LDS group with a bishop among them. We did stop and talk a bit and one of the guys seemed pretty well trained by the boy scouts, but not completely (ie he had a totem, but seemingly one climbing rope). But we also knew that almost everyone else had never been in a canyon before as we exchanged casual comments as we passed them. Given that info, what would you have done Dan? we talked about if we had done the canyon before our quick conversation with them would have been drastically different than it was

We did hear back that the group made it out sunday mid morning. which makes me assume all they endured is a crappy cold night.

lostlandscapes, I want criticisms as I've never really put thought into what one should do in such a situation. The reason we didn't call that night was that they might try the risky climb out of the canyon after dark since they didn't look like they had much in terms of warm clothing. We decided if their car was still there when we left we'd call and give a heads up. Yeah, we wanted to sit up there and wait, and we probably would have if we could get back down there before dark (or early moon rise) with our full gear. climbing down (and up) the exit would be pretty sketch in the dark.

 

[ratagonia]

I think you did the right thing. Good on ya. Good choice on timing and content/style of calling SAR. Not a Call-Out, just a heads-up.

Did you have a conversation with the trip leader, about the FACT that they were going to spend the night in the canyon? The only addition I can see to add would be: to offer to come back to the start of the canyon and help get them out, after you completed the canyon, and after they climbed back up to the start. I think it is good to have this conversation and make this offer, even though 99% of the time both will, ahem, not be appreciated.

And being a world-class ***hole, I would then have asked for and written down their information. Kinda like getting their badge number. But I don't expect others to be quite so assinine.

Tom

 

[gloo]

Did you have a conversation with the trip leader, about the FACT that they were going to spend the night in the canyon?

No, honestly when we ran into them we were thinking selfishly...how can we get past these slow pokes? they were super spread out so we didn't realize they were one big group till we passed them up. we didn't really talk or think about the fact they'd be staying overnight until we were down the first rap (beyond the moki steps optional one). yeah its definitely a good thing to offer, though I agree in that most people's pride would not like that haha. In the future, definitely will be something to talk about, as i mentioned had we done the canyon before and were familiar with it we probably would have had that convo, but we didn't entirely know what to expect route wise in there. Thanks Tom!