Don't get mad, get even.

[gnwatts]

I have been reflecting, for a lack of a better term, on our recent election. I know Nick does not like bringing in politics to the site. The thing is, politics and environmental protection go hand in hand. So I will risk Nick's wrath.

In 1972 the republican Nixon was re-elected. I did not like him much. However, Nixon has an impressive environmental record: The National Environmental Policy Act, the Environmental Protection Agency, he extended the Clean Air Act, created the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act, and the Endangered Species Act. Yes, we have to thank “I am not a crook” tricky Dick for these policies. Not many would consider Nixon a good person, he was a disgrace. Sound familiar?

President Carter created the “Superfund” to clean up toxic waste. Carter is a very nice man, and had a lot of good ideas, but people wanted change in 1980. Sound familiar?

As a result, we got President Reagan. A f*cking actor. Nice, good natured, just like your slightly crazy great uncle. He unleashed on us the devils incarnate, Secretary of the Interior James Watt, and the director of the EPA Anne Gorsuch. Watt reduced funding for environmental programs, slashed funding for acquiring protected land, he wanted to increase the leasing of federal land for oil and gas production. Mining, drilling, timber! It was the first time in my life that I felt that immediate action was needed. We gave to environmental causes, increased our visits dramatically to areas around Escalante and Bluff. Had my tires deflated at the Egypt trailhead.

Reagan made us painfully aware of the consequences of inaction.

Recently, Obama has increased dramatically natural gas drilling and fracking. Wells have appeared all over our part of Colorado. Look up Rifle Co on google maps, we have Obama to thank for most of that.
If you feel strongly about this, you need to vote. And help as you can.
It makes good economic sense to protect what we have. Trump say’s how great a business man he is. Let’s see.

I, for one, want to give our president elect a chance. We all win if he wins. Given the lessons from history, maybe he will be a good president for the environment. But I am not optimistic at all. If he performs as he probably will, I recall the immortal word’s of Robert Kennedy and D-Day in Animal House, “Don’t get mad, get even”.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I'm giving President-Elect Trump an open mind. Personally I feel he's far more "progressive" than either side realizes, we'll see how things play out.

That being said, I'm not a single, or even two or three topic voter. I'm passionate about public lands and about safeguarding them for the future but it's down at the middle of my list when looking at politics, certainly not at the top.

Really, regardless of your political leanings, if you are an outdoor lover, you need to make your voice heard. Most Republicans and Libertarians I know deeply care about conservation efforts and use public lands just as much as my Democrat friends (to be honest a whole lot more but that may have to do with proximity).

Public lands and conservation shouldn't be a partisan topic and we need to make sure that our politicians understand that. Regarding Reagan, just remember that for every individual that remembers his presidency negatively, there is at least one, and probably closer to two that remember it favorably.

I'm for access to public lands so many of the organizations out there simply don't get my money and won't receive my support. What conservation organizations are there out there that want to protect public lands but aren't anti-access?

 

[Kmatjhwy]

We all need to give President Elect Trump our best. Now just want to say that during the campaign, Trump gave an interview to Outdoor Life. Donald Trump is very much on the side of the Hunter and the Fisherman, being able to access and enjoy the public lands of the country, and on the side of the Right to Bear Arms. For those that are interested, here is a link to the interview. Now I am not a Hunter personally but have met many a hunter and a fisherman who enjoy and love the out of doors as much as we do. Since he is now the President Elect, here is a link to the article. And since this is an outdoor forum for us who love the out of doors, and this thread, here again is the link. In the article he mentions how he wants to keep the public lands - Public, and keeping access to those lands for those that use them rather in hiking, fishing, or hunting. Here is the link for those that are interested. Remember it was Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, a hunter, who became one of the greatest ones in American History in preserving the lands that we do have now. Wishing Everyone the Best!

The article: www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2016/01/qa-donald-trump-guns-hunting-and-conservation

 

[Udink]

Recently, Obama has increased dramatically natural gas drilling and fracking. Wells have appeared all over our part of Colorado. Look up Rifle Co on google maps, we have Obama to thank for most of that.

I would think supply and demand plays some minuscule part in the increase in drilling, no? Look up Price, Utah on Google Maps. We have me--turning on the hot water tap and cranking up the furnace--to thank for most of that. And thankful I am!

 

[Udink]

Please let me also say this: I recognize that the population growth on this planet is unsustainable. That is the major cause of all the environmental issues that many complain about, yet we still continue to reproduce and consume resources. When I was a twenty-something and starting a family, none of these issues were even remotely on my radar. In the past couple of years, however, I've recognized that population growth is a huge threat to everything we currently enjoy (even something so simple as driving down a primitive dirt road), and I've gone so far as to encourage my kids to consider not having children. The best way to conserve and protect our resources is to reduce the demand upon them.

 

[Bob]

I'm keeping my heat up this winter......... but I heat with a geoexchange water to water heat pump..... and solar panel generated power for 3/4 my power usage .....

 

[SKLund]

Politics cannot be avoided. It is everywhere and in everyone. To think one can avoid it, especially in these times, is flatly not possible. I am in no way giving Donald Trump any slack at all. You can't even start

I have been reflecting, for a lack of a better term, on our recent election. I know Nick does not like bringing in politics to the site. The thing is, politics and environmental protection go hand in hand. So I will risk Nick's wrath.

In 1972 the republican Nixon was re-elected. I did not like him much. However, Nixon has an impressive environmental record: The National Environmental Policy Act, the Environmental Protection Agency, he extended the Clean Air Act, created the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act, and the Endangered Species Act. Yes, we have to thank “I am not a crook” tricky Dick for these policies. Not many would consider Nixon a good person, he was a disgrace. Sound familiar?

President Carter created the “Superfund” to clean up toxic waste. Carter is a very nice man, and had a lot of good ideas, but people wanted change in 1980. Sound familiar?

As a result, we got President Reagan. A f*cking actor. Nice, good natured, just like your slightly crazy great uncle. He unleashed on us the devils incarnate, Secretary of the Interior James Watt, and the director of the EPA Anne Gorsuch. Watt reduced funding for environmental programs, slashed funding for acquiring protected land, he wanted to increase the leasing of federal land for oil and gas production. Mining, drilling, timber! It was the first time in my life that I felt that immediate action was needed. We gave to environmental causes, increased our visits dramatically to areas around Escalante and Bluff. Had my tires deflated at the Egypt trailhead.

Reagan made us painfully aware of the consequences of inaction.

Recently, Obama has increased dramatically natural gas drilling and fracking. Wells have appeared all over our part of Colorado. Look up Rifle Co on google maps, we have Obama to thank for most of that.
If you feel strongly about this, you need to vote. And help as you can.
It makes good economic sense to protect what we have. Trump say’s how great a business man he is. Let’s see.

I, for one, want to give our president elect a chance. We all win if he wins. Given the lessons from history, maybe he will be a good president for the environment. But I am not optimistic at all. If he performs as he probably will, I recall the immortal word’s of Robert Kennedy and D-Day in Animal House, “Don’t get mad, get even”.

Every indication is that his presidency will be the worst possible for the environment. Add in a government under single party control at federal level and more then half of the states and it bodes very ill indeed. I have no hope whatsoever. Two years for the House to flip or I'm gone. I've had it. I barely recognize this place after 63 years.

 

[gnwatts]

I'm keeping my heat up this winter......... but I heat with a geoexchange water to water heat pump..... and solar panel generated power for 3/4 my power usage .....

We have 6kw of solar panels. $4 electric bills in the summer. Astronomical natural gas prices though.

Politics cannot be avoided. It is everywhere and in everyone. To think one can avoid it, especially in these times, is flatly not possible. I am in no way giving Donald Trump any slack at all. You can't even start
Every indication is that his presidency will be the worst possible for the environment. Add in a government under single party control at federal level and more then half of the states and it bodes very ill indeed. I have no hope whatsoever. Two years for the House to flip or I'm gone. I've had it. I barely recognize this place after 63 years.

Give up if you want i guess. My point in my post was that presidents least likely to be good for the environment turn out ok. Those that were supposed to be good fell short IMO. Our president elect does not seem capable of doing the right thing on this subject (or many others), but who knows?
You said "every indication" is that he will be a disaster. I agree. But progress and effective opposition is not possible if you don't get involved. I believe in revolution (it's an American tradition) if we are faced with tyranny, but not until we know it is needed. Trump is the President, however worrisome.

 

[Kmatjhwy]

Now however one thinks about Trump, then think of this. Giving up is never an answer! Think about right now how many many empty places are left all over the country, with especielly here in the American West. How many various administrations have come and gone for decades and decades belonging to both parties but how much of the deeply wild backcountry is still there. It is my bet that this administration will come and go, and much of it will still be there bigtime. Right now it is very much a really really chaotic world out there and just one nuclear bomb from whoever will be everyones bad day. And personally we are highly blessed in this country with so much backcountry. I think when Trump is long gone and whoever comes after is in power, we will still have our National Parks, our Wilderness Areas, and much of the unroaded backcountry still in existence. The thing to me is this ... how many people, who give allegiance to both parties including environmentalists, when one looks at their daily lives - they are so indeed soooo alienated from our Mother Earth - from the land.

And personally, I am now near 60 years old and have been hiking for almost 40 years all over the American West. And actually now when I go back into the deep wild areas, it seems better and more wild then it was in my youth. Take for instance the Yellowstone's Thorofare which I first visited in 1982. There used to be people running everywhere in there and now it seems so much less people. I have seen many backcountry campsites now becoming all covered over with grass with being long forgotten about it seems. The last few years have seen it seems far less people in that backcountry where I go. Do think it will still be there after I am gone and definitely when Trump comes and goes, and the person after him comes and goes, and so on. Just get out there now and see it while you are living and enjoy life.

Wishing Everyone the Best!

 

[Bob]

Now however one thinks about Trump, then think of this. Giving up is never an answer! Think about right now how many many empty places are left all over the country, with especielly here in the American West. How many various administrations have come and gone for decades and decades belonging to both parties but how much of the deeply wild backcountry is still there. It is my bet that this administration will come and go, and much of it will still be there bigtime. Right now it is very much a really really chaotic world out there and just one nuclear bomb from whoever will be everyones bad day. And personally we are highly blessed in this country with so much backcountry. I think when Trump is long gone and whoever comes after is in power, we will still have our National Parks, our Wilderness Areas, and much of the unroaded backcountry still in existence. The thing to me is this ... how many people, who give allegiance to both parties including environmentalists, when one looks at their daily lives - they are so indeed soooo alienated from our Mother Earth - from the land.

And personally, I am now near 60 years old and have been hiking for almost 40 years all over the American West. And actually now when I go back into the deep wild areas, it seems better and more wild then it was in my youth. Take for instance the Yellowstone's Thorofare which I first visited in 1982. There used to be people running everywhere in there and now it seems so much less people. I have seen many backcountry campsites now becoming all covered over with grass with being long forgotten about it seems. The last few years have seen it seems far less people in that backcountry where I go. Do think it will still be there after I am gone and definitely when Trump comes and goes, and the person after him comes and goes, and so on. Just get out there now and see it while you are living and enjoy life.

Wishing Everyone the Best!

That's because most people have become lazy, its a minority that wants to get far back in...... look at the use in most of Colorado, heck look how hammered the Tetons get.... both .easy to get to, not far in.

 

[Bob]

Geez ....................... give the new guy a chance to perform or not. Remember who ever gets elected doesn't make everyone happy, on 50%.... that's the way our system works.......

 

[Deleted User]

For the record, both candidates sucked. Neither was going to be good for the future of this country. That being said.......

Electing Trump was a disaster for protecting environment. Just look who he is putting as head of the EPA. He wants Sara Palin to be the administrator for the Department of the Interior. Mrs. Drill Now. You better expect that our national treasures like National Parks and Wilderness Areas are now on the table for exploitation. Think of the darkest scenario possible for our natural areas. That is now all on the table. The potential for things to go really bad is ripe for the picking by this president and a majority control of the house and senate which Republicans now have. You now have an administration who thinks climate change is a hoax. Science just became the enemy of the state. Isn't that just grand?

Better get out and see those places you have been wanting to see. They may end with oil rigs on them soon enough. Or they will frack or collect tar sands cutting down forests to access that. Every pipeline deal is gonna be approved. Our air quality in Utah will only get worse now. The Anthropocene is really happening. I am afraid we are not immune to it. We are on that extinction list as well.

Personally, I survived Bush, I'll survive Trump. That is what I do best, I am a survivor. But the world we leave our children is going to be a goddamn mess. Not a lasting legacy anyone should want. #2cents

 

[andyjaggy]

The good news is Obama has permanently protected more land than just about any other president in history. I will forgive an increase in drilling and fracking for that, I think it's a reasonable compromise.

Also good is that Trump has made several comments in public that make it sound like he values public lands, more so than most other Republican candidates and politicians. He has publicly come out AGAINST the land takeover. However only time will tell if he stands by those principles or caves to the will of the conservatives. He doesn't seem to care much what anyone thinks so I am remaining positive that he will hold his ground.

Energy policy on the other hand, definitely looks like it's going to swing pretty far to the right.

Also give Reagan some credit he signed the Montreal Protocol which was a HUGE deal in eliminating potent greenhouse gases that were killing our ozone. Today's Republicans would probably claim there was no hole in the ozone, and that if there was it is actually a good thing for us.

 

[gnwatts]

Good points.
However, natural gas drilling in our area is devastating the environment. Water contamination, soil erosion road building and pollution are rampant.
Gas wells release benzene, toluene, and methane, into the air, nasty VOC's. The ground water is polluted by the fracking chemicals (the industry will not divulge what chemicals they are injecting into the ground), and toxic ponds are left behind when the drillers leave.
Obama has enabled this, unfortunately.

 

[Bob]

Ok...... so everyone wants oil and gas to stop ........ but I never hear what to replace it with. What will you use to drive around in, power long trips, heat your house, light your house, or heck....what would you build you house with, make clothes out of, make you backpacking gear out of, how about that thing everyone puts up to their ear and can't live without (last I looked it was nylon/plastic....made from petro). Better yet how much will you pay for it or lack of it? Face it humans consume and humans industrialize things......

 

[Absarokanaut]

The leader elect of the free world is a climate science denier.

I find it admirable to advise your children to perhaps not have children of their own, but it is the third world where population growth is the real issue. Civilization has always been predicated on growth, and as long as we indulge avarice the industries of fear and division will ensure growth will go on. It will take a lot more to re-invent civilization than shelving the call from institutionalized religion to be fruitful and multiply. An informed person knows the promotion of the mythology of an afterlife and the Biblical prohibitions of suicide, abortion, and homosexuality were grounded in the purpose of making people endure their suffering and be producrtive for the few in the ruling class, not homage or reverence for/to a mythological diety. Try telling that to a religous fanatic today and you're likely to have a crucifix raised to your face. Unfortunately millions of Americans scream about the Consitution but have no understanding of the documents inclusive nature. These people think "Religous Freedom" means imposing their religous constraints on everyone. I think we need to reintroduce civics and not let it be bastardized by the special interests raking it in in our economy of ignorance.

Trump promised jobs for the Rustbelt and that's why he won. Now that Congress doesn't have a black man on PA Avenue maybe they'll stop being so incredibly obstructionist and get some good things done like infrastructure investment and energy diversification. Sadly though the progressive tax rates that were one of the key fuels for the engine of our greatest periods of economic expansion under Eisenhower and Clinton don't look like they'll return anytime soon. We will continue to go the opposite direction of places like Mexico where the wealth gap is actually narrowing. Our Middle Class will continue to be sacrificed for the affluent and millions of Americans will continue to struggle to get out from behind the paycheck to paycheck existence that will crush us if we continue to kick that can down the road. Our culture of consumption isn't something today's "conservatives" want us to tackle. They want us to keep up their jobs program for the rich, national "defense." We'll continue to spend more than the next 10-17 nations combined on our "defense" while seniors can't afford medication and millions of us are to scared to go to the Dr. not for what we might find out but for how much it costs.

If you value the environment demand far greater veracity from this new "Altright" Government. We have nothing to fear but those industries of fear and division.

 

[Deleted User]

Ok...... so everyone wants oil and gas to stop ........ but I never hear what to replace it with. What will you use to drive around in, power long trips, heat your house, light your house, or heck....what would you build you house with, make clothes out of, make you backpacking gear out of, how about that thing everyone puts up to their ear and can't live without (last I looked it was nylon/plastic....made from petro). Better yet how much will you pay for it or lack of it? Face it humans consume and humans industrialize things......

On the energy issue, renewable can replace the whole system. Geothermal Energy alone with the new GES systems can generate unlimited emission free energy. As a planet we use about .05 ZJ a year in total energy consumption. If we utilized just the natural existing Geothermal Power on a global scale, we could harvest 200 ZJ a year. Meaning that just with the natural existing hot spots, we could power the world for the next 4,000 years. Add the new GES systems, and we cold have unlimited emission free power. Iceland runs its infrastructure on Geothermal energy. Also at a cost which is a fraction of coal fired power plants. Solar is outpacing coal currently in the market. We have the ability to stop using fossil fuels right now. People just have to stand up and demand it. Car companies already have all electric capabilities. Tesla being the biggest of them. Lets replace the fossil fuel subsidies we just throw out the window every year with a credit to the tax payer to go purchase an electric vehicle? We are currently spending it to make a few oil dudes wealthy, how about use that for the people towards a better planet?

As far as our gear for backpacking, Hemp textiles can replace the whole nylon textile industry. What is great about Hemp is that it is a renewable source that does not get down cycled. You can recycle Hemp. Hemp was our biggest textile in the US before Dupont wanted in on things. There are also non-toxic waterproofing applications which would take the toxicity out of the process.

It is going to take a paradigm shift in our society to solve Climate Change. Its the old saying, "If you tell yourself you can't, you won't. If you tell yourself you can, you have got a chance." It is all about perspective.

 

[Jackson]

Ok...... so everyone wants oil and gas to stop ........ but I never hear what to replace it with. What will you use to drive around in, power long trips, heat your house, light your house, or heck....what would you build you house with, make clothes out of, make you backpacking gear out of, how about that thing everyone puts up to their ear and can't live without (last I looked it was nylon/plastic....made from petro). Better yet how much will you pay for it or lack of it? Face it humans consume and humans industrialize things......

This is a hard truth that I don't think gets spread around enough. People do seem to think its only use is to be burned. Literally everything we have depends on the stuff either directly or indirectly. Not just for its combustion, but in most of the plastic we use in everything, in producing enough fertilizer to grow food to stock shelves across the world, etc. Halting oil pipelines, fracking and such protects land, but it also will bottleneck production of just about everything.

It sucks that oil development causes so many problems, as detailed by @gnwatts, and it sucks that we depend so heavily on it. It would be great to find an equally efficient substitute for all its uses. Or several efficient substitues for all its uses, like what @Dr Nebz said about hemp as a substitute for nylon (it might take a whole lot of space to grow that much hemp, though).

 

[Deleted User]

@Dr Nebz said about hemp as a substitute for nylon (it might take a whole lot of space to grow that much hemp, though).

We have plenty of room to grow Hemp. It was our largest cash crop in American before congress put a tax on it which made it so expensive to grow, they just stopped growing it. Dupont was the lobby behind that because they had created the nylon line and fabric. Nixon moved it to Schedule 1 because it was an attack on all those who opposed the Vietnam War.

If this country can illegally allow the oil companies to put a pipeline thorough a Native American Reservation, we can grow hemp for a much more sustainable planet.

Read this book. It is the history of Cannabis and Hemp in America. There is a lot you do not know because of the War On Drugs.

 

[John Goering]

The leader elect of the free world is a climate science denier.

I find it admirable to advise your children to perhaps not have children of their own, but it is the third world where population growth is the real issue. Civilization has always been predicated on growth, and as long as we indulge avarice the industries of fear and division will ensure growth will go on. It will take a lot more to re-invent civilization than shelving the call from institutionalized religion to be fruitful and multiply. An informed person knows the promotion of the mythology of an afterlife and the Biblical prohibitions of suicide, abortion, and homosexuality were grounded in the purpose of making people endure their suffering and be producrtive for the few in the ruling class, not homage or reverence for/to a mythological diety. Try telling that to a religous fanatic today and you're likely to have a crucifix raised to your face. Unfortunately millions of Americans scream about the Consitution but have no understanding of the documents inclusive nature. These people think "Religous Freedom" means imposing their religous constraints on everyone. I think we need to reintroduce civics and not let it be bastardized by the special interests raking it in in our economy of ignorance.

Trump promised jobs for the Rustbelt and that's why he won. Now that Congress doesn't have a black man on PA Avenue maybe they'll stop being so incredibly obstructionist and get some good things done like infrastructure investment and energy diversification. Sadly though the progressive tax rates that were one of the key fuels for the engine of our greatest periods of economic expansion under Eisenhower and Clinton don't look like they'll return anytime soon. We will continue to go the opposite direction of places like Mexico where the wealth gap is actually narrowing. Our Middle Class will continue to be sacrificed for the affluent and millions of Americans will continue to struggle to get out from behind the paycheck to paycheck existence that will crush us if we continue to kick that can down the road. Our culture of consumption isn't something today's "conservatives" want us to tackle. They want us to keep up their jobs program for the rich, national "defense." We'll continue to spend more than the next 10-17 nations combined on our "defense" while seniors can't afford medication and millions of us are to scared to go to the Dr. not for what we might find out but for how much it costs.

If you value the environment demand far greater veracity from this new "Altright" Government. We have nothing to fear but those industries of fear and division.

Nice summation of my feelings also. I don't have a lot of optimism about the future of the planet. Can humans control their population? Absolutely not. And with that, they aren't going to control anything else either. But thankfully I'm old and won't be there to see it all come apart.

Trump's transition team does not bode well for any environmental cause, public lands, or access to those lands despite what he said before the election. And frankly, those rust belt jobs are gone and not coming back in a global economy no matter what political winds blow. It is the same for the coal industry. It isn't a political war on coal, just absolutely simple economics. Natural gas is so cheap at the present time, coal just can't compete.

The only manufacturing jobs I see increasing in the future will be those high tech versions that can make something cheaper and better than the buck an hour (optimistically) labor in the third world. But those types of manufacturing don't require very many employees.

I feel I did my part. My wife and I didn't have children, a very conscious decision. I built a very energy efficient house with a large amount of recycled material that uses a cord of two of wood to heat and that wood all comes from less than half mile from the house. My only real vise is that I still like to drive a Jeep into the backcountry where it is still permitted. But the total yearly mileage involved with that is still minimal.

No matter how you look at it, it's going to be an interesting 4 years. And perhaps this election more than any that proceeded it points to an election system that is dire need of a major overhaul. But that is another thing that is never going to happen.